Mars Water

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:46 am

Hi
I suppose this subject has been well and truly thrashed but this may not have been considered.
Imagine Mars as a well covered planet with lots of water-- earth like possibly. An approaching scource of gravity begins to have large tidal effects which become greater and greater as the gravity scource approaches. On earth we have substantial tides in the region of ten knots perhaps but imagine a flow of thirty knots perhaps more.
Just a rough estimate would be a gravity approach from north because of the north polar geographical-- features and the comparison with features between the north and south regions.
Consider how much damage a debris laden flow of thirty knots plus could do.
There are clues to this including if I remember correctly-- South facing cliffs in the southern hemisphere- riddled with gully formations which could have been formed by deep fast debris laden water flowing up and over.
If you enter Mars uphill flow on google there are plenty of references to this but explained by glaciers pushing ice uphill. Perhaps it was debris and water.
I believe there are nothern plains with long straight gullys erroded in the surface where to me it would be possible to imagine them being formed by water laiden debris once again- with rocks finding the gullys to be dragged along in and increasing their size.
The north pole has a heavy swirl I believe but not to sure about that one- but perhaps part of the process.
Boulder--water formed rounded stones left at high points-- perhaps some at the top of deep erroded gulleys
Mars has an eliptical orbit I believe.
That is a few off the top of my head that may be clues.
As for the water-- I can see this tidal flow building just off center to the pole and becoming a large bulge of much of the water that may have existed. if this was deep enough and bulged enough and considering the exponential (is this the right word) force of gravity with regards to decreasing distance the bulge would at its closest point to the gravity scource begin to bulge and climb even more untill it formed a spike of water which was drawn off towards the gravity scource.
Acreted water-debris could perhaps look something like the rings of Saturn. Some of the water would not have been taken so perhaps there is some evidence of the ballance of the water bulge resetting causing more but reverse flow damage.
worth a thought perhaps
regards Dave R (Slow Photons)

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:32 am

What?!?

No pictures, no links?!?!?!

,,, please

Norval

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:38 am

Hi Norval
You caught me out a little here re pictures and links because I have not thought about this for a year but here is part of an article and a link re Mars.
>>>The channels are also inclined downstream, which is typical of ice flows that can push up inclines. Such gouge marks are unlikely to be made with moving water, which cannot flow uphill for extended distances, even during large-scale flooding.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 9EC588EF21
I will have a browse for other stuff tomorrow and get back to you regards Dave R

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:48 pm

Although I do concur that there has been extensive flooding on Mars. There remains the problem of where the tidal forces came from to do this. Mars also seems possibly to have been catastrophically flooded a couple of times, not just once. But keep working on it, many great discoveries have come from curiosity.

Norval

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:55 pm

Hi Norval
Thanks for your reply

These are interesting lines from
http://geology.cwru.edu/~harvey/GEOL101 ... /mars.html

>Near their terminus's, these channels show abundant streamlines where >the
>water flushed around obstacles, sometimes breaching them. (Fig. 6.15, >6.16).
>The features are reminiscent of a single high volume flood rather than
>continuous stream erosion, and resemble the Channeled Scablands of
>Washington (Fig. 6.19).
>The frequency of large impact basins on Mars is about 1 per 107 km2.
>compared to the moon at about 8 per 107 km2, this is a lot less, even
>considering that about 1/3 were wiped out when the northern plains were
>resurfaced.
Just a point re two floods--If it did happen as I have described, there would be evidence of two floods. The major flood heading roughly north and the residual water re setting with some gravitational effect from the passing gravitational scource and the remaining flows from Mars own gravity field.
I have found an interesting picture, The link I will post soon with a small explanation. Wife must be obeyed.
Where the gravity scource is right now- I have no idea
regards Dave R

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:42 pm

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camer ... e2_5.4.jpg

This would seem to be a good picture to illustrate my point.
To the right the terrain features perhaps show a large uphill flow causing some impressive errosion-- Look at the shape of the terrain above almost all of the outcrops.
To the left we see more damage but mostly smaller some in the form of rivulets (is that the word) and they seem to have been formed by errosion in a downward direction. Perhaps the second flood.

There are two other types of erosion pictures to find yet. Perhaps others have seen them
One is of sawtooth regular erroded gullies-- in south facing cliffs and rises. Perhaps these are formed by water and the heavier debris channeled into the cuts of the gullies whist flowing up and over, further erroding them. I suspect these could be reproduced with a model.
The second picture would be a plains picture with long straight gullies. Perhaps they are also formed by debris washed along and gravitationaly bouncing along the bottom of these.
When looking at any picture of Mars with cliff gully features- especialy in the southern hemisphere perhaps it is worth noting the south facing orientation of most of them.
regards Dave R

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:29 pm

Here is a link that may be of some help in your research.

http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin2/webmap.pl

Not sure how this version works as my slow line speed makes this new map version unusable for me.

Norval

S. Bilderback · Post by **S. Bilderback** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:08 am

To the right the terrain features perhaps show a large uphill flow causing some impressive errosion

It looks like a standard mud crater rim that has slowly melted and eroded down hill to me. What do you see that I'm missing?

Doum · Post by **Doum** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:40 am

Rev, here is why i doubt that theorie.
If a gravity of some sort had come that close to Mars at a point were all water on Mars go to the pole were that gravity is pulling it then Mars would have been tear apart by that same gravity.

Example:
(If the moon was getting closer to earth then at a certain distance from earth the gravity of earth would be stronger on one side of the moon then at the other side and that difference in gravity strenght would tear the moon apart. Wich mean that earth will then have a ring.)

So i doubt that theorie is holding cause Mars is still there in a good stable orbit. And all planet have an elliptical orbit. They are close to circle but are not circle.

I didnt see what you see.

May be new discovery will add up to change the theorie to the one you said. Will see.

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:14 am

Hi Doum.
Just lost a post-- I will try again.
Yes you could be right-- but considering some of the tidal streams on earth with speed and height it is still worth considering. The tidal bulge in the northern hemisphere would have been large and deep and not so rounded at its peak due to the exponential gravity effect re distance to the gravity source so the bulge becomes a sharper radius and eventualy a spike.
Please consider not all the water- debris went but perhaps the vast majority did so we would see evidence of two flows in many areas- one up and one resetting after the event. The up damage is virtualy all on south facing cliffs.
Try this link and look at the damage south facing I believe.
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/jun ... index.html
Great picture-- blow up the left hand one.
To me- this could be interpreted as two flows all in one picture. The large upward flow making the large pear shaped shapes and the rivulets being the resetting water. Look at some of the larger pear shapes and the smaller disecting gullies that do not reach the top edge- no rivulets off these and besides-- I still may be wrong but there does not appear to be enough apron to the rivulets to explain the material erroded from the gullies at the pear shapes.
Anyways Doum you may still be right but please consider the whole picture
Please consider when you talk about the moon and its proximity to earth ripping it apart if the gravity fields got closer, as far as I know presently it may have been accepted that the moon was formed from the earth and we have no ring from when it must have been well and truly real close and moving away, and we are both intact.
Consider recent evidence of a star I believe in close proximity to a black hole and orbiting extreemly quickly (Hope I am right) -- not torn apart yet
I am still hanging on to the theory Doum even though you may have put a dent in it.
regards Dave R

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:57 pm

This makes me think about how and what may have caused the flood spoken about in the bible. 8)

Norval

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:46 pm

Hi Norval
Interesting thought. It is said the water movement on Mars looks recent and I presume you may be refering to the same gravity source with a much milder effect on Earth.
regards Dave R ( slow photons )

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:21 pm

The earth biblical flood was supposedly about 4000 years ago.

I am thinking the flooding on Mars was quite recent. Like in the last hundred years I am thinking. But what that gravity source may have been I am not sure of.

Possibly an object about 1,500 miles big?

Norval

S. Bilderback · Post by **S. Bilderback** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:08 am

If that were true, Mars's orbit would be much more eccentric and the change would show up in/from star charts of ole.

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:31 am

Hi S Bilderback
Thanks for the post.
I do see your point in the post but please consider
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjec ... nets/mars/
Mars---- Its orbit is very elliptical; Mars has the highest orbital eccentricity of any planet in our Solar System except Pluto.
Also please consider as in a previous post that Our moon as far as I know is now accepted as being formed from a collision with the earth. Our orbit is not so eccentric.
regards Dave R

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:58 am

Hi agaid S Bilderback
I seem to have missed one of your posts- I am sorry.
I am not sure you are bringing up the same picture as me but
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camer ... e2_5.4.jpg
This should show part of a crater rim with rivulet markings going down from below the top edge on the left hand side. This is the residual return flow. In the right hand side of the picture it should show rocky outcrops with long material tails going uphill which would indicate a large flow up and over the cliff in this area - The initial flow direction where the major damage may have occured.
Your description sounds like another picture I have looked at where the viscous mud flow from the crater apeared to flow uphill.
I hope we get to the same picture.
regards Dave R

Storm_norm · Post by **Storm_norm** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:37 am

maybe collisions with the earth and Mars have made the orbits more circular??

if there was water on Mars, wouldn't its entire orbit be changed if that mass was removed over time?

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:54 pm

Yes, Norman, yet those same impacts can cause the orbits to become more elliptical. So that is not a good idea to explain the anomaly.

Mars's water seems to be there, just buried beneath a few meters of dirt and debris.

Norval

S. Bilderback · Post by **S. Bilderback** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:48 pm

The most likely scenario why Mars lost most of its atmosphere and H2O was due to the loss of most of its magnetic field. As the magnetic field weakened the solar winds stripped more and more of the atmosphere away, the H2O boiled into vapor and was also stripped away with the other gasses.

Empeda2 · Post by **Empeda2** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:04 pm

What kind of thing would cause such a loss of magnetic field? Just interested as I know absolutely nothing about this area!

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:46 pm

Hi
When you look at pictures of mars please keep the upward flow in mind.
Note the main damage seems to be in an upward direction
southfacing outcrops with tails going upwards
the northern plains "Resurfaced"
Eliptical orbit
Main high flow damage between 30 and 70 degrees South
If water did flow or weep recently from these south facing cliffs perhaps there should be some evidence of water ice considering their local temperature and sheltered from the sun positions
Subterranean water would be pushed to cause the damage seen
Main damage heading north residual flows and rivulets resetting themselves mainly south.
Water seepage from the north wall-- facing south of a crater wall would seem unlikely
Has anyone noted outcrops with tails heading upwards in my links or other pictures.
regards Dave R

S. Bilderback · Post by **S. Bilderback** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:07 pm

Empeda2 wrote:What kind of thing would cause such a loss of magnetic field?

The cooling of the Fe core, because Mars has only .38 times the mass of the Earth, it's core has cooled where can no longer supply enough protection from the solar winds.

The Magnetic field of the Earth has been dropping about .5 % every 100 years, but that is different than Mars, the Earth is getting ready to "Flip" it's north and south magnetic poles. Right now the Earth is at 1/1000th its maximum magnetic strength - another theory why there is a hole in the ozone layer.

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:03 pm

,,, and Venus has an atmosphere 90 times that of earth and no magnetic field to speak of. And twice as close to the sun as Mars.

It seems to me that this all just got hashed out a few weeks ago,,,

Norval

Doum · Post by **Doum** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:42 am

I write some thing here and i got disconnect before i finish. So i will write many post in a row instead of one so i wont get disconnect. Ya being disconnect after careful writing for a long time is frustrating.

So, i read that mars lost its atmosphere because of its weak gravity. Wich are a third of earth's gravity. The sun still heating up the atmospheric molecule even at that distance so it give them enough energy to escape the mars gravity. So Mars lost its atmosphere over the billion of years.

Doum · Post by **Doum** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:53 am

As for Venus, it does have a gravity close to earth's gravity but still not as strong. So Venus might have lost its light element it had in its atmosphere cause the sun is giving enought energy to the high atmosphere of Venus for the molecule or the atom there to reach an escape velocity greater then that of Venus gravity. So Venus lost its light element over the billion years and have enough gravity to keep its CO and CO2 wich are heavier element. Its true that Venus still have sulfuric acid in its higher altitude wich is milder in temperature. But in higher altitude U.V. is still entering Venus atmosphere to break water in its constiuents wich are H+ and OH-. So may be sulfuric acid overthere are breaking up from those U.V. radiation and are still escaping Venus gravity right now.

Starship Asterisk*

Mars Water

Mars Water

Mars Water

Mars Water

Mars Water

Mars Water

Mars Water

Mars Water

Mars Water

just a thought

Mars Water