Methane lakes on Titan (APOD 31 Jul 2006)

[cxd207]

forgive my ignorance, but if NASA were to try to land soemthing near these lakes, could they explode? Can methane burn in the vacuum of space? Has there been any oxygen detected on Titan?

[Pete]

Titan's atmosphere has no free oxygen, so its methane can't ignite:

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article1408.htm

Concievably, a probe carrying an oxygen supply and a heat source could burn some atmospheric methane...I just hope NASA isn't thinking of doing that

[cxd207]

thanks for the info

[ta152h0]

I think the next planetary landing effort by NASA is on Enceladus, with a dinghy ??

[aichip]

Consider that we can produce fuel cells that use methane, and that any probe that is to last for a while on Titan would need heating for its circuitry and sensors, then you can see an interesting proposition emerges.

By carrying a methane/oxygen fuel cell, along with a supply of liquid oxygen, the probe could provide heating and electrical power for many hours, perhaps a few days. This means that a rover or lander on Titan could prove useful with "old tech" power, namely the oxidation of methane.

So a small bottle of a few liters of LOX could be provided, the fuel cells could use the atmosphere of Titan as an energy source, and the waste heat keeps the probe up to operating temperatures. This looks like a feasible method of getting a working rover on that moon and scouting about for at least a number of hours.

Of course, it would probably be far better to have a set of three to ten micro-rovers, each dropped from a balloon that can move about the environment for a few days. Then we could survey the lakes, rilles, highlands, and other features easily.

[orin stepanek]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huygens_probe
I thought that it was determined back in January that Titan may have rivers and seas of methane? Maybe it was just speculation
Orin

[ta152h0]

a sea of mechanical ants on Titan provides an interesting mental concept that could be made into a Sci Fi channel movie. Fire breathing monsters carrying mechanical brain function roaming the countryside spreading terror and fear

[selden03]

I discovered if you pull these images (more found on Nasa's Cassini web site) into Photoshop and stretch the contrast, the "lakes" have texture which looks a lot like the terrain.

If you look at the big lake on the upper right, for example, and stretch the contrast, you can even see "rivers" in the lake.

Obviously these black areas are not really black. Although they appear black at normal viewing levels, if you pull up the contrast in these areas, they do seem to have terrain. These areas appear to me to be some sort of terrain, but with lower radar-reflectivity than the brighter areas.

See an example at http://www.smccabe.net/titan_lake1.jpg

Any thoughts?

---Selden McCabe

[aichip]

Hi, selden03.

I think we might be seeing what is below the surface, although I could be wrong. I expect that the presence of liquid methane could be seasonal and that those areas are possibly exposed and weathering at other times.

This would explain a lot, and the present existence of liquid over them would obscure the details just as the images show.

[aichip]

I have looked the darker areas and yes indeed, they appear to show submerged features. I have to say that this is a "high water" time and the basins are full of methane, but at some other time, the material must evaporate away to some much lower level.

This would indicate a good seasonal rainfall of the stuff from time to time. Now we need only determine if the seasons are linked to aphelion, when it might be coldest.

Saturn's orbit is fairly eccentric, with about 200 million kilometers difference between aphelion and perihelion. This might mean that summers on Titan are dry with little liquid methane around, and fall and winter could bring torrential rains. Amazing how similar the scenario is to Earth when you think about it. But all it takes is energy and a solvent, and perhaps we could find some exotic sort of life there.

No bets here of course, but it would be interesting to speculate on the chemistry that might work at those temperatures.

[Martin]

Nice picture!

aichip -my thoughts exactly. The Methane could be clear.

Are there any tests/research that we can refer to that might give us clue?

Could pockets of oxygen lay beneath the ground and is oxygen the only required element for ignition?

Seeing these pictures make me think of Europa.
The unknown waits for us on Europa -I can't wait.

[aichip]

I developed a number of image processing techniques when working on Martian fossils. I have applied some of the things I learned to the Titan lake image and here is what I have come up with. You can see where the rivers lead to the lowest elevation portion, and they are now covered.

Looks like whatever the dark stuff is, it stays put in the riverbottoms even when they are flooded. Organic ooze? Petroleum sludge? Hard to say. But with no further ado, here is the image.

[BMAONE23]

aichip,

GREAT image.

Notice the horse on the upper left bank.

And the Halibut in the lower right shallows

[orin stepanek]

I kinda like this picture of Titan.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=18449
Orin

[harry]

Hello All

Some images that I have collected over time. May be of interest to some.

Titan
Cassini spacecraft approached its first close flyby of Saturn's smog-shrouded moon on October 26
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041028.html


Descent to Titan
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050114.html

Titan Landscape
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050117.html

Riverbeds and Lakebeds Discovered on Saturn's Titan
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050124.html

Descent Panorama of Saturn's Titan
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060508.html

August 6, 1995 when the rings lined up sideways as seen from Earth. Saturn's largest moon Titan is seen on the left, and Titan's shadow can be seen on Saturn's cloud tops
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960429.html

Titan Descent Data Movie with Bells and Whistles
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA08117

A View from Huygens - Jan. 14, 2005 - Movie
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassi ... 08118.html


Why use methane when we can use Boron and Hydrogen fusion. This could be the enrgy of the future.

[l3p3r]

Why use methane when we can use Boron and Hydrogen fusion.

Hi harry. I think we are considering using the abundant methane (should it actually be there) on Titan as a fuel source to reduce the expense / payload size of a lander to titan.

[harry]

Hello All

Smile,,,,,,,,,,,I see,,,,,,,,,,,,than I better take my money out of oil.

[iamlucky13]

No bets here of course, but it would be interesting to speculate on the chemistry that might work at those temperatures.

Seeing that picture on yesterday's APOD made me think think about just that. Just think of the look on the faces of the scientists at ESA if Hguyens had hit the ground and sent back pictures of some methane based analog to a forest!

Less fantastically, I started wondering what could work. Water is a fairly lightweight molecule that is liquid at our temperatures because it is polar. Methane has a similar weight, but is liquid at much lower temperatures because it is non-polar. This has a lot of implications for biological possibilities because our standard solvent here is polar, whereas on Titan it would have to be non-polar (theoretically anyways).

Also, water has a very low chemical energy, so its produced commonly in exothermic reactions. In contrast, methane is produced typically in endothermic reactions. That shift in the thermodynamics certainly has major implications, and sadly probably makes life less likely under that scenario.