APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

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APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by APOD Robot » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:10 am

Image Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni

Explanation: Supergiant star Gamma Cygni lies at the center of the Northern Cross, a famous asterism in the constellation of the Swan (Cygnus). Known by the proper name Sadr, the bright star also lies at the center of this gorgeous skyscape, featuring a complex of stars, dust clouds, and glowing nebulae along the plane of our Milky Way galaxy. The field of view spans over 3 degrees (six Full Moons) on the sky and includes emission nebula IC 1318 and open star cluster NGC 6910. Left of Gamma Cygni and shaped like two glowing cosmic wings divided by a long dark dust lane, IC 1318's popular name is understandably the Butterfly Nebula. Above and slightly left of Gamma Cygni, are the young, still tightly grouped stars of NGC 6910. Some distance estimates for Gamma Cygni place it at around 1800 light-years while estimates for IC 1318 and NGC 6910 range from 2,000 to 5,000 light-years.

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Boomer12k » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:13 am

Looks like a Baseball player diving over for the catch!!! Got a "hand" under the star...

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Beyond » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:34 am

Hmm... 3-APODS today. When was the last time Otto Posterman was oiled :?:
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:54 am

Beyond wrote:Hmm... 3-APODS today. When was the last time Otto Posterman was oiled :?:
Not sure why it does that. Something Boomer did (possibly unknowingly) made it post 3 times.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Boomer12k » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:14 am

I don't see 3-APODs today...maybe that is something that happens as the dates are UTC...as it is Monday Here in Oregon, but UTC it is the 9th...about an hour away for me...

Or maybe I pushed the wrong button, I hope we don't all get fried flying into Gamma Cygni!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:


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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:07 am

The other two were removed already.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by neufer » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:56 am

Beyond wrote:
Hmm... 3-APODS today.

When was the last time Otto Posterman was oiled :?:
HAL Marvin Bender Otto is simply trying to maintain his 1.06 posts per day rating.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by orin stepanek » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:40 am

I see we got some early risers! I'm still on my first cup of coffee! :D
Orin

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Beyond » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:02 pm

I just looked at Otto Posterman's stats.

Most active forum:The Bridge: Discuss an Astronomy Picture of the Day
(1314 Posts / 94.60% of user’s posts)

Most active forum :?: :?: Where the heck does Otto post besides the Bridge :?: I always thought of him* as Mr. APOD.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Nest » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:18 pm

I just looked up the reference for the 750 lightyears distance, but there it says 467 parsec = 1523 lightyears. I'm an astronomical amateur, so if anybody has an explanation, I'd be grateful. Im just asking because I wanted to add/correct wikipedia on this.

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:15 pm

Nest wrote:I just looked up the reference for the 750 lightyears distance, but there it says 467 parsec = 1523 lightyears. I'm an astronomical amateur, so if anybody has an explanation, I'd be grateful. Im just asking because I wanted to add/correct wikipedia on this.
I've noticed that distance as well as size estimates for various objects seems to vary quite a bit from one study to the next. Who could say which is correct? There's a lot of room for errors. Still, the Wikipedia article seems more reasonable than the APOD description.

Edit: Mailed the editors to ask them about the matter.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by NoelC » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:23 pm

<in my best Yoda voice>

Blue Sadr is not. False color this is, hm?

-Noel

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Nest » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:27 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Nest wrote:I just looked up the reference for the 750 lightyears distance, but there it says 467 parsec = 1523 lightyears. I'm an astronomical amateur, so if anybody has an explanation, I'd be grateful. Im just asking because I wanted to add/correct wikipedia on this.
I've noticed that distance as well as size estimates for various objects seems to vary quite a bit from one study to the next. Who could say which is correct? There's a lot of room for errors. Still, the Wikipedia article seems more reasonable than the APOD description.
Thanks, I was confused, because an old version of wikipedia (german) also said 750, and maybe the factor of 2 is might have a meaning. So I'll better not touch it.

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by geckzilla » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:28 pm

Nest wrote:Thanks, I was confused, because an old version of wikipedia (german) also said 750, and maybe the factor of 2 is might have a meaning. So I'll better not touch it.
I didn't update my post fast enough for you to see but I sent the editors an email about it.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by rstevenson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:11 pm

As for distance to Gamma Cyg, Jim Kaler says, "1830 light years, give or take a large uncertainty of 280", and English Wikipedia says ~1800. As is often true of astronomical distances, it depends on what kinds of measurements are available and what their inherent errors are.

Rob

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:54 pm

NoelC wrote:Blue Sadr is not. False color this is, hm?
"False color" generally implies that an artificial color mapping was utilized in order to enhance some particular feature. This is a simple LRGB image, so it would probably be better simply to recognize that there is some significant color inaccuracy here.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Ann » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:11 pm

The Hipparcos measurements, on which Jim Kaler based his distance estimate, said that the parallax to Gamma Cygni is 1.78 ± 0.27 milliarcseconds.

We can make the following conclusions:

1) Gamma Cygni is very far away.

2) If - and that's a very big if - the Hipparcos measurements are absolutely correct, then the distance to Gamma Cygni is 1830 ± 280 light-years.

3) On the other hand, the distance to Gamma Cygni could be shorter, but still very far away. It could be, say, 1,000 light-years away. The distance could also be longer than 2,000 light-years. But Gamma Cygni is classified as an F8Ib supergiant, not an F8Ia one, suggesting that it probably shouldn't be very much farther away than 2,000 light-years. Otherwise it would be surprisingly bright for its spectral class. Then again, you never know.

Today's APOD is beautiful.

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by RJN » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:21 pm

Nest wrote:I just looked up the reference for the 750 lightyears distance, but there it says 467 parsec = 1523 lightyears. I'm an astronomical amateur, so if anybody has an explanation, I'd be grateful. Im just asking because I wanted to add/correct wikipedia on this.
Thanks for the query. Yes, distance estimates may change as better data becomes available. As discussed in above posts and following Kaler (first link), I have now updated the APOD distance estimate to 1800 light years.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:48 pm

Ann wrote:The Hipparcos measurements, on which Jim Kaler based his distance estimate, said that the parallax to Gamma Cygni is 1.78 ± 0.27 milliarcseconds...

2) If - and that's a very big if - the Hipparcos measurements are absolutely correct, then the distance to Gamma Cygni is 1830 ± 280 light-years.
I don't think that's a big if at all. There is little evidence of systematic errors in Hipparcos measurements, and the error is rigorously propagated. The stated error is the simple standard deviation. Thus, we can quite safely assume that there is a 68% probability that the actual distance lies between 1590 and 2160 ly (1875 ± 285) and a 95% probability that the actual distance lies between 1410 and 2630 ly (2020 ± 610).

I don't really know what it means to say a measurement is "absolutely correct" and then give that measurement with an attached standard error!
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Ann » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:44 am

Chris Peterson wrote: There is little evidence of systematic errors in Hipparcos measurements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades#Distance wrote:

Measurements of the distance have elicited much controversy. Results prior to the launch of the Hipparcos satellite generally found that the Pleiades were about 135 parsecs away from Earth. Data from Hipparcos yielded a surprising result, namely a distance of only 118 parsecs by measuring the parallax of stars in the cluster—a technique that should yield the most direct and accurate results. Later work consistently argued that the Hipparcos distance measurement for the Pleiades was erroneous.[3][4][5][15][16] In particular, distances derived to the cluster via the Hubble Space Telescope and infrared color-magnitude diagram fitting favor a distance between 135–140 pc.[3][15]
I have been a little suspicious of the Hipparcos data ever since the Pleiades controversy occurred. Moreover, it seems to me that the Hipparcos measurements should be less reliable the more distant the star in question is, and the smaller the measured parallax is. A very small adjustment in a very small parallax leads to a huge adjustment in the star's distance and luminosity. And since Gamma Cygni is undoubtedly more distant than the Pleiades, the Hipparcos data should be less reliable for Gamma Cygni than for the Pleiades. And they have been "iffy" for the Pleiades.

Please understand that I don't propose to know better than you do here, Chris, but I wanted to voice the reason for my lack of absolute confidence in the result of tiny Hipparcos parallaxes.

On the other hand, I note that some of the more controversial Hipparcos parallaxes have been adjusted so that they are a bit more in accordance with the distances that have been established, or guessed at, by other means. I believe, although I'm not absolutely certain, that the overall "Hipparcos distance" to the Pleiades has been somewhat expanded. I know for a fact that the "Hipparcos distance" to Deneb, Alpha Cygni, has been slashed. The original Deneb parallax, which was used by my Guide software, was just over one milliarcsecond. The revised parallax is instead 2.31 ± 0.32 milliarcseconds. The luminosity of Deneb, based on the original, tiny parallax, was about 200,000 solar luminosities. Based on the revised parallax, its luminosity has been slashed to about 50,000 Suns. This is in much better accordance with other estimates of Deneb's brilliance than the original Hipparcos parallax was.

And since the parallax of Gamma Cygni is certainly based on the revised Hipparcos catalog, I probably shouldn't be so suspicious of it.

Finally, though, I note that Alpha Cygni is classified as A2Ia and Gamma Cygni as F8Ib. The revised Hipparcos catalog makes Gamma Cygni more distant than Alpha Cygni, and the resulting luminosities are somewhat similar: 49,000 ± 14,000 Suns for Alpha Cygni and 34,000 ± 10,000 Suns for Gamma Cygni. The difference in actual luminosity between the supergiant type Ia and the supergiant type Ib is a bit smaller than I had expected.

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:28 pm

Ann wrote:I have been a little suspicious of the Hipparcos data ever since the Pleiades controversy occurred.
There was concern at one point about systematic errors in Hipparcos data, and several papers were published on the subject. Most of those questions have been resolved, with the Hipparcos data largely standing up to scrutiny.

It is fine to maintain a degree of skepticism about anything (indeed, everything). But it is likely that that the carefully processed Hipparcos data is accurate the majority of the time, and within its stated error bounds. Unless you have a good reason to doubt a specific case, I think it's wrong to make the suggestion that believing the parallax data requires something of an act of faith... which is how I took your earlier wording. I don't think we're in disagreement here... it really was just a choice of words that hit me wrong.
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Beyond » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Words... they can be tricky little devils. :yes:
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by rhorvitz » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:21 pm

In this photo of Gamma Cygni, many stars in the surrounding star field seem to form short chains of 8-12 stars. There are enough of these that I wonder: is this an illusion or artifact, or is it the result of an actual physical process?

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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by neufer » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:09 pm

rhorvitz wrote:
In this photo of Gamma Cygni, many stars in the surrounding star field seem to form short chains of 8-12 stars. There are enough of these that I wonder: is this an illusion or artifact, or is it the result of an actual physical process?
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/21/pareidolia-poser/#.Ue_eWazNk5Q wrote: Pareidolia poser
By Phil Plait, Bad Astronomy, April 21, 2009 7:26 am

Question for you: which of these two images shows dots that are placed at random, and which does not?

<<The problem with questions like this is that you already know it’s the one on the left that’s random, and the one on the right isn’t, since you know I’m trying to trick you. But what’s going on?

Our brains love to find patterns in random noise. Look at the clumping of the dots on the left; surely that’s not random? But it is. The distance between dots will average out to some number, but statistically you expect there to be some deviation from that average, so that some dots will be closer together (making clumps) and some farther apart (making voids). That’s what’s happening on the left.

On the right, the random pattern that was generated was modified so that the dots would not be too close together. If a dot’s position was found to be too close to another, its position was redone until it was a minimum distance from all other dots. What’s left is a pattern that we think looks more random, but is in fact highly non-random.

A more detailed explanation of these images is at the blog In The Dark, and he uses it to talk about galaxy distributions. However, it also tells us a lot about our brains. We are instinctively lousy at statistics.

Another great example is this one: imagine you flip a coin ten times, and you keep track. Which of these sequences is more likely?

HHHHHTTTTT

or

TTHHTHHTTH

The answer is they are both exactly as likely. You have a 50/50 shot at a heads or tails on each throw, so any 10-throw sequence is just as likely as any other! But we look at the second sequence and see no information in it. We assume it’s just random, and therefore more likely than a sequence where we perceive there is information, like five heads in a row followed by five tails. But each is just as likely.

We view the entire Universe through our senses, and the data are processed by our brains. This gloppy computer is highly sophisticated, but also highly unreliable to give us unbiased information. We see patterns where they don’t exist, we see cause where they may be none, and we see intent where there may be randomness.

That’s why pareidolia — seeing faces or other familiar objects in random patterns like oil stains, wood grain, and the odd piece of bark of pastry item — cracks me up. The brain of a human will interpret that pattern into something familiar, and if that person is religious, they see a religious icon. But they don’t seem to hang the same connotation on seeing Abe Vigoda in a nebula and Lenin in a shower curtain, or Ben Grimm in a supernova, or any of a hundred examples I can find easily.

You can be fooled. Remember that, always. It pertains to a lot in life, and a lot in the life of an active skeptic. Fooling people is easy. Getting them to see? That’s what’s hard.>>
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Re: APOD: Supergiant Star Gamma Cygni (2013 Jul 09)

Post by Beyond » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:30 pm

For me... random is random, even if it's modified. IF you can see beyond the randomness, then you begin to understand. But it won't be easy for the brain.
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