Dimensions and Time

[Ron-Astro Pharmacist]

Yesterday I posted an unacceptable post on APOD. I can't remember the exact post but it had something to do with viewing something far away (such as the Einstein Cross) with a telescope is like looking back in time. Also, why we do not see the small to large / large to small as a dimension? The idea came across my mind that viewing “the small” with microscopes/particle accelerators might conversely be like seeing forward in time. It was deleted.

Today I agreed that it wasn't a post for that site but would like to again ask the question if it has been a topic which has previously been investigated. Ron

[Ron-Astro Pharmacist]

One of the reasons I am so hung up on this time/dimension thing is that, in the investigation of dark matter, it seems reasonable to be only able to see matter if it exists in the observers current moment in time. The question then is ; Could dark matter only be something so simple as matter existing in a different time frame? How could this be? Two things come to my mind. Matter that has been time disrupted by a black hole or matter that has been time disrupted as it encountered variations in space -time as the universe aged. Another strange thought by a non-physicist but a thought that may seem a "possibility". Ron

[makc]

lol, this forum does not change year after year any way, TS: look in the mirror. you might think you're looking at yourself "now" but in fact this was you some (small) time ago, or "past" you. the sun you see is the sun 8 minutes ago. you can't ever see "now", things you see are always things from the past.

[Chris Peterson]

One of the reasons I am so hung up on this time/dimension thing is that, in the investigation of dark matter, it seems reasonable to be only able to see matter if it exists in the observers current moment in time. The question then is ; Could dark matter only be something so simple as matter existing in a different time frame? How could this be? Two things come to my mind. Matter that has been time disrupted by a black hole or matter that has been time disrupted as it encountered variations in space -time as the universe aged. Another strange thought by a non-physicist but a thought that may seem a "possibility". :) Ron

It's a lot simpler to just accept the most popular view, that dark matter is made up of particles that don't interact with electromagnetic radiation. Particles with such properties are already known to exist, after all.

[Ron-Astro Pharmacist]

Reasoning with actual facts that fit into the currently known will eventually "fill in the voids" but it's not nearly as fun for us, ignorant, but enthusiastic participants with over active imaginations. I have a hard time excepting that the matter that enters a black hole is gone (but not gravitationally forgotten). I'd rather imagine that it is changed in some fundamental way. Perhaps it is given an anti-gravity (or some symmetric quality - - sgravity???) property that keeps it surrounding our galaxy in precisely the opposite way it's attracted to the center but residing in the halo.

If it's any consolation I give the radiation oncologists' around here the same trouble with questions like, "Why can't we use destructive interference to destroy a tumor's aberrant DNA, leaving our good DNA alone with electro-radiative, sonic or anti-matter waves of an opposite wave length? Zapping the DNA (or parts of it) right out of the nucleus be quite a blast for our patients!! Having some unique way to treat this terrible disease would be an awesome way to bring particle physics into the mainstream in a way our population would get behind and support. Dreaming again!!
Ron

[BMAONE23]

I believe that the matter that enters the BH Still does make itself known.
It does, in it's own small way, add to the gravity of the situation

[Chris Peterson]

I have a hard time excepting that the matter that enters a black hole is gone (but not gravitationally forgotten).

I'd have a hard time with that, as well. But that's really not the current view. Matter that enters a black hole is inside the black hole. Its mass is directly observable, so we know it's there in some form. What that form is remains highly speculative, of course, but there's no reason to believe that the energy that it represents has gone anywhere.

[Ron-Astro Pharmacist]

Good point! Given the varieties of black hole masses that have been detected throughout the universe, their central gravitational effects are more likely attributed to consumption. It's not likely the mass would end up functioning in two places at once. The underlying mechanism for the peripheral gravitational effect is going to wait for another explanation.

Speaking of it's central mass and my imaginary thoughts. It's waste is a terrible thing to over-mind (Not from me) . No having my cake and eating it too - today. But I'll keep trying because," A wasted mine is a terrible thing" Where would the state of science be today without imagination, especially educated imagination:!: . The education part to follow. Thanks, Ron

[Ron-Astro Pharmacist]

Oh no. Not another inane question from the "Astro-pharmacist without a clue." Earlier I had asked on another discussion topic whether black holes gravitationally attract just matter or potentially matter and space might also be consumed. There was some debate but, in the end, I don't think we could know for sure. Seemed to me... Instant alternate universe; space and matter beyond the black hole.

Same question - different matter. What about dark matter? Some resources I have suggest that dark matter is present everywhere in our galaxy (although the gravitational effect seem to be in our galaxy's halo) Anybody out there have an idea if dark matter consumed by a black hole would yield anything but a silly question?

Am I the only one out there asking questions that could never be answered? It's so easy to come up with questions that, in our time, have no potential for really knowing. Putting forth unanswerable questions or suggesting imaginary hypothesis’s it obvious I don't seem to be making much headway. At least it's still interesting to me. I do thank all out there with real knowledge and I hope you grant, those like me, patience because we wish we were there too. One lifetime is definitely not long enough!!
Ron

[rstevenson]

... Anybody out there have an idea if dark matter consumed by a black hole would yield anything but a silly question? ...

Well, from my non-expert reading, it seems dark matter is just matter than does not interact electromagnetically with our kind of matter (called baryonic.) But it does interact with it gravitationally. So it will find its way into black holes, and then ... ... "deponent knoweth not". Since we know very little about dark matter, there's not much we can say at that point. Except that it's hard to imagine how something which does not interact with baryonic matter electromagnetically could do much of anything that would be startling just because it was mixed tight together with a whole lot of such matter.

Rob

[Chris Peterson]

Oh no. Not another inane question from the "Astro-pharmacist without a clue." Earlier I had asked on another discussion topic whether black holes gravitationally attract just matter or potentially matter and space might also be consumed. There was some debate but, in the end, I don't think we could know for sure. Seemed to me... Instant alternate universe; space and matter beyond the black hole.

Perhaps this will help. Space (or more generally spacetime) is not considered a physical thing, which is why it doesn't get consumed by black holes. Spacetime is the coordinate system that is used by the theories of relativity to describe the variance and invariance of distances under different conditions (coordinate transforms). Mass is said to distort spacetime, which just means that the coordinate system is changed such that distances along certain paths are altered. There is no actual thing to be attracted by gravitational force (there can be no force on spacetime itself, because spacetime has no mass or energy associated with it).

Same question - different matter. What about dark matter? Some resources I have suggest that dark matter is present everywhere in our galaxy (although the gravitational effect seem to be in our galaxy's halo) Anybody out there have an idea if dark matter consumed by a black hole would yield anything but a silly question?

It is generally assumed (but not universally) that dark matter consists of non-baryonic particles. These have mass, but don't interact with the electromagnetic force. As such, they will fall into a black hole like any other matter, and add to its mass. Since all that is preserved by a black hole from the material that falls into it are mass, angular momentum, and electric charge, we would expect any consumed dark matter to contribute the the first two.

Much less dark matter is expected to fall into black holes than ordinary matter, because most infalling material is the result of accretion discs. In such a disc, fluid dynamics (which are associated with the electromagnetic force) cause angular momentum transfer and the loss of energy from orbiting material, such that it spirals into the black hole. Unless dark matter can interact with itself in some unknown way, it can't form accretion discs (which is probably why it is found in a spherical halo around galaxies which have their ordinary material more or less in a plane) and therefore won't fall into a black hole except when their paths directly intersect- a rare occurrence.

Am I the only one out there asking questions that could never be answered?

There's nothing to suggest that these sorts of questions can't be answered. Some may have been answered already, but simply lack the necessary formal construction or observational evidence to elevate those answers to what might loosely be called "facts".

[Ron-Astro Pharmacist]

Thank you all for your comments. What a great resource this is for us that have an intense curiosity about the universe we exist in but not the understanding to quite grasp it's structure and math that we use to verify that knowledge. …Yet Ron