APOD: J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist (2011 Sep 07)

[APOD Robot]

J102815: A Star That Should Not Exist

Explanation: Why does this star have so few heavy elements? Stars born in the generation of our Sun have an expected abundance of elements heavier than hydrogen and helium mixed into their atmospheres. Stars born in the generation before our Sun, Population II stars, the stars that created most of the heavy elements around us today, are seen to have some, although less, elements heavier than H and He. Furthermore, even the elusive never-seen first stars in the universe, so-called Population III stars, are predicted to have a large mass and a small but set amount of heavy elements. Yet low-mass Milky Way star SDSS J102915+172927, among others, appears to have less metals than ever predicted for any stars, including at least 50 times less lithium than came out of the Big Bang. The unusual nature of this star, initially cataloged by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS) and pictured above, was discovered by detailed spectroscopic observations by a large VLT telescope in Chile. Many models of star formation indicate that such a star should not even form. Research is ongoing, however, with one leading hypothesis holding that fragile primordial lithium was destroyed in the star's hot core.

<< Previous APOD

Discuss Any APOD

Next APOD >>

[/b]

[bystander]

ESO: The Star That Should Not Exist
http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25121

[English Adept]

Stars born in the generation before our Sun, Population II stars, the stars that created most of the heavy elements around us today, are seen to have some, although less, elements heavier than H and He.

Yet low-mass Milky Way star SDSS J102915+172927, among others, appears to have less metals than ever predicted for any stars, including at least 50 times less lithium than came out of the Big Bang.

Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language, should be ashamed. The first sentence should read "...are seen to have some, although fewer, elements..." The second should be "...appears to have fewer metals..."

Sorry for the somewhat off topic comment, but I never cease to notice yet more English native speakers/writers who seem to have never heard of the word "fewer" before, or at least have no clue how to use it. In a nutshell, it is used in place of "less" whenever whole and separate quantities are being discussed. "Less" is used when there's units with an indiscernible or inseparable quantity. Therefore, "...50 times less lithium..." is correct, even though technically it has atoms that could be called separate quantities. "Lithium" is considered one unit, singular, whereas elements and metals are plural, and separable.

[Ann]

Well, as a non-native English speaker it seems to me that there might be a difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals". "Fewer metals" might mean that the spectrum of a star shows evidence of only, say, three elements apart from hydrogen and helium. "Less metals" might mean that the elements apart from hydrogen and helium exist in extremely low amounts.

Ann

[owlice]

English Adept, that's quite a crabby post you have there. BTW:

Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language

his first language

somewhat off topic comment

somewhat off-topic comment

when there's units

when there are units

Can we be done with the English lessons now? Good. Now back to business: What a cool APOD! The video is interesting, well worth the three minutes it takes to watch.

[starstruck]

?? !

I don't seem to be able to see the video clip to which you refer owlice . . . but then, I can't really string a decent sentance together in English either! Doesn't stop me from enjoying APOD and learning about things I never even knew I didn't know. My thanks to the people behind APOD for always providing something surprising and interesting.

[owlice]

starstruck, it's the link at this star in this phrase: "unusual nature of this star"

[florid_snow]

There is no such thing as "good writing" only good re-writing, as a professor of mine used to say.

I can't believe it wasn't until I was 20 years old that I really realized the sun was a star, but close up. I probably heard it a bunch of times in school, but it never clicked until I watched an episode of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. All this complicated "this is a really crazy discovery" stuff is great, but sometimes it is the really basic stuff smart people assume everyone knows that can, with the right emphasis, blow the public's mind.

[starstruck]

Many thanks . . . found it . . . I was just starting to go through all the links when I saw your reply.

[English Adept]

Well, as a non-native English speaker it seems to me that there might be a difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals". "Fewer metals" might mean that the spectrum of a star shows evidence of only, say, three elements apart from hydrogen and helium. "Less metals" might mean that the elements apart from hydrogen and helium exist in extremely low amounts.

Ann, that's not how it works. It's two different forms of the same meaning (fewer versus less). If the second meaning you suggest was intended, it should be stated as "lower amounts of metals", or something similar.


"owlice", that's quite an unduly and inaccurately critical post. BTW, on that note, you didn't include a capital letter, period, or complete those "sentences".

his first language

No, "their first language", as it wasn't known to me if it was a male or female writer.

somewhat off-topic comment

No, there's no hyphen required.

when there are units

A minute, insignificant correction. I was making note of a substantial, noticeable, common error. On that note, yes I'm done with this smarty-pants game of making it into petty and false corrections. Good.

About the APOD, that's wild they find something that seems to be circumstances past, out of the early universe. Even seemingly sound, well established theories get turned on their head sometimes. It's part of the excitement of science.

[nstahl]

I'm with Ann and owlice on this one. And that is part of the excitement of science, and why if you want understanding about how the universe works science is your source to use. It's self-correcting. It's not perfectly true but at least it's getting closer and closer, which is all we can hope for.

[mst66186]

... Furthermore, even the elusive never-seen first stars in the universe, so-called Population III stars, are predicted to have a large mass and a small but set amount of heavy elements. ...

Ummm... from following the links it seems that our sun would be a generation III star and these elusive never-seen first stars should be Population I?

[Guest]

I am enjoying this English Lesson of the Day!

[Atomische]

Perhaps the heavier elements have been removed.

[neufer]

I am enjoying this English Lesson of the Day!

• --------------------------------------------------------
  . As You Like It Act 2, Scene 7
  
  JAQUES: What is he of basest function
  . That says his bravery is not of my cost,
  . Thinking that I mean him, but therein suits
  . His folly to the METTLE of my speech?
  . There then; how then? what then? Let me see wherein
  . My tongue hath wrong'd him: if it do him right,
  . Then he hath wrong'd himself; if he be free,
  . Why then my taxing like a wild-goose flies,
  . Unclaim'd of any man.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . Othello, The Moor of Venice Act 4, Scene 2
  
  IAGO: Why, now I see there's METTLE in thee, and even from
  . this instant to build on thee a better opinion than ever before.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . Julius Caesar Act 1, Scene 2
  
  BRUTUS: What a blunt fellow is this grown to be!
  . He was quick METTLE when he went to school.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . King Henry IV, Part i Act 2, Scene 4
  
  FALSTAFF: Well, that rascal hath good METTLE in him; he will not run.
  ...................................................
  . Act 5, Scene 4
  
  PRINCE HENRY: O, this boy Lends METTLE to us all!
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . King Henry IV, Part ii Act 5, Scene 3
  
  FALSTAFF: I did not think Master Silence had been a man of this METTLE.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . King Henry V Act 4, Scene 8
  
  FLUELLEN: By this day and this light, the fellow has METTLE enough in his belly.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . Much Ado About Nothing Act 5, Scene 1
  
  CLAUDIO: What, courage, man! What though care killed a cat,
  . thou hast METTLE enough in thee to kill care.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . Measure for Measure Act 3, Scene 2
  
  LUCIO: I will pray, Pompey, to increase your bondage: If
  . you take it not patiently, why, your METTLE is the more.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  . A Lover's Complaint Stanza 16
  
  'Well could he ride, and often men would say
  'That horse his METTLE from his rider takes
  --------------------------------------------------------

[reedkantor]

English Adept, that's quite a crabby post you have there. BTW:

Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language

his first language

somewhat off topic comment

somewhat off-topic comment

when there's units

when there are units

Can we be done with the English lessons now? Good. Now back to business: What a cool APOD! The video is interesting, well worth the three minutes it takes to watch.

thats "fewer"metals, not "less metals." grammar is important when writing...know the difference between the use of "fewer" and "less." muchas gracias.

[neufer]

This picture shows the distribution of the light of different colours coming from SDSS J102915+172927 after it has been split up by the X-Shooter instrument on the ESO VLT. Different colours fall in different places in this strange picture and astronomers can use this data to find the chemical signals from different elements within the star, which show up as dark interruptions of the curved lines. The spectrum of the star appears to be triple at each wavelengths as it was split up using an integral field unit to collect as much light as possible. This ancient star has been found to have the lowest amount of elements heavier than helium of all stars yet studied. The only evidence of elements heavier than helium is two dark lines from the element calcium.

---

thats "fewer"metals, not "less metals." grammar is important when writing...know the difference between the use of "fewer" and "less."

This picture shows the distribution of 4 star General David Petraeus's medals FLUELLEN: By this day and this light, the fellow has METTLE enough in his belly. CLAUDIO: What, courage, man! What though care killed a cat, . thou hast METTLE enough in thee to kill care. FALSTAFF: Well, that rascal hath good METTLE in him; he will not run.

---

[orin stepanek]

Wow! It makes one scared to make a post if his; or her; English is critiqued! Anyway I enjoyed today's APOD! I would think to destroy the lithium; the star must of been in a state of fission instead of fusion! That doesn't seem to work for me!

[Axel]

It's not the first time that I've noticed common English errors in the APOD text. It seems literacy has long been considered irrelevant to scientists and engineers. But as for the current discussion the matter is very simple: it less of one thing and fewer of a number of things.

[casubellus]

How about this "theory": there is a vast amount of nearly-impossible-to-detect MOLECULAR hydrogen in interstellar and inter-galactic space, which allows this type of star to form AND accounts for the (non existent) 'dark matter'.

[neufer]

I would think to destroy the lithium; the star must of been in a state of fission instead of fusion!
That doesn't seem to work for me!

Lithium citrate

Perhaps J102815 is just loaning its supply of lithium to
a nearby White Dwarf that is attempting to go all supernova on it.

<<Lithium possesses a very important antisuicidal effect not shown
in other stabilizing medications such as antiseizures drugs.>>

[nstahl]

neuter thanks for pointing out so graphically the difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals", and the sense in which "less metals" can be considered correct here. And since it can be considered correct I really think the benefit of any doubt one has should go to the people who spend so much effort putting this up every day. And in this case if one has no doubt it's because one hasn't thought it through.

[bystander]

Whoever wrote this, if English is their first language, should be ashamed. The first sentence should read "...are seen to have some, although fewer, elements..." The second should be "...appears to have fewer metals..."

thats "fewer"metals, not "less metals." grammar is important when writing...know the difference between the use of "fewer" and "less." muchas gracias.

... it [is] less of one thing and fewer of a number of things.

We are talking about one thing, metals, a mass noun meaning elements heavier than hydrogen or helium. Substitute metallic content or metallicity, if you wish, but less is appropriate, not fewer.

Well, as a non-native English speaker it seems to me that there might be a difference between "fewer metals" and "less metals". "Fewer metals" might mean that the spectrum of a star shows evidence of only, say, three elements apart from hydrogen and helium. "Less metals" might mean that the elements apart from hydrogen and helium exist in extremely low amounts.

Ann, that's not how it works. It's two different forms of the same meaning (fewer versus less). If the second meaning you suggest was intended, it should be stated as "lower amounts of metals", or something similar.

Actually, that's exactly how it works and Ann is correct in her interpretation. As stated above, metals, as used here, is a mass noun, much like water. The statement, "Because of the drought, there is fewer water in the lake." is absolutely nonsensical, yet that is the usage you advocate.

[Iron Sun 254]

... Furthermore, even the elusive never-seen first stars in the universe, so-called Population III stars, are predicted to have a large mass and a small but set amount of heavy elements. ...

Ummm... from following the links it seems that our sun would be a generation III star and these elusive never-seen first stars should be Population I?

Population I is is not a term for first generation stars but for the youngest generation. They were named in order of discovery so, since our Sun was obviously in the first group to be discovered, that group was designated Population I.

[saturn2]

The J 102815 star look like to human organism.
This star has 75% of H and 25% others elements.
The human organismo has 75% de H2O and 25% others elements.
J 102815 is a star that shoud not exist, but it exist.
I think that BIG BANG theory has many errors.
Other example of error of the Big Bang theory is the far explotion of object GRB 090423