Starship Asterisk*

Owlice wrote:

Opera is when a guy gets stabbed in the back and, instead of bleeding, he sings.

That's true indeed. Opera characters don't bleed when they die in character onstage: sound waves gush out of their mouths instead.

To me, however, opera isn't really symbolized by the guy who gets shot and sings instead of bleeding. Instead, opera to me is the fat, or possibly not so fat, lady who sings. And after she has sung, her character lies dead on stage, and the opera is over.
It ain't over till the fat lady sings. But when she has sung she is good and dead, and the whole shebang is over. The picture is from the Simpsons episode, Bart the Genius.

Opera is basically a "death genre", because it is basically about the death of the main characters. Specifically, it is a "death of woman" genre, because it is usually about the death of the female lead. So when she has finished singing her "death aria", the performance is over.

There are more stories about men than about women. That is certainly true when it comes to big and expensive movie productions. And precisely because there are more stories about men than about women, the fact that the one woman-centered "big and expensive" genre also demands that the female lead character must normally die is something that troubles me.

Most movies are about men who triumph. Most operas are about women who die. Men's lives and triumphs are interesting, but women are usually not very interesting unless they die.
Whether she is innocent...
... or a real flirt... (this is from the rock-Latino-pop version of Bizet’s Carmen, Carmen Latina)...
...we want to see her (or them) die. Even if she (or they) don't sing. As in Thelma and Louise.

Hey, I know there are exceptions... unless Ellen Ripley, too, died in the end.
Ann

If it's a soprano singing in the top of her range, my idea of a good opera is to knock her off in Act 1, preferably Scene 1, so I can enjoy the rest of the opera without wanting to rip my ears off!

(I'm sort of kidding. But only sort of.)

That said, the idea that opera is only of men's triumphs/women's death strikes me as narrow.

Owlice wrote:

That said, the idea that opera is only of men's triumphs/women's death strikes me as narrow.

I agree!

I have just attended a discussion about opera and the general fate of men and women in opera librettos. We were told that in the genre of opera as a whole, approximately 44% of the characters played by sopranos die on stage because the libretto says so. About 33% of the tenors die. Only about 17% of the characters played by bass singers die.

Clearly that means that opera is not only about the death of women and the triumphs of men!

Ann

The genre of opera as a whole? Hmmm... I'd be asking for the list of operas that were included in this study before I'd take the findings seriously. I'd wonder how many late 20th century operas were included, for example.

(Only 44%? Why not 100%?! Maybe that would make opera turn a profit!)

The Oprah Opera is ending, finally, and she isn't dying. She's moving to Chicago to do something else. Oh, wait a minute........maybe moving to Chicago IS dying!! Oh-well. I tried to help.

Ann, speaking of The Simpsons: the only rational, intelligent characters in that show are female - Marge and Lisa.

Many Shakespeare plays end with both females and males dying; they are rarely about triumph (there are exceptions, the most obvious is perhaps Henry V). They usually focus on human flaws such as hubris, lack of communication, or the characters as victims of cultural conventions.

Western Civilization is heavily influenced by the Greeks. I imagine this is the source of the paternal nature of our society and this bias appears in our drama - as it did for our ancient ancestors.

I think it is worth noting that well-written fiction (movies or print) tends to challenge this stereotype while simplistic fiction (action movies and such) more likely fits the characteristics you describe.

Orca, thanks for your reply!

For the record, I love the Simpsons. I love all the characters in it, but one of my favorites, clearly, is Lisa.

As for Shakespeare, I agree with everyone that he was a genius. I love Romeo and Juliet, deeply admire Hamlet, and admire Macbeth. So I don't much like The Taming of the Shrew, but hey, Shakespeare gets two thumbs up from me, nevertheless. You are right, Orca, that Shakespeare never singled out women for death, so to speak, and you can never say about his plays that they aren't over until the fat lady sings. Whatever his plays are about, they are never about simply driving a woman to madness or death. Instead his plays are fantastically rich and complex. You said:

Many Shakespeare plays end with both females and males dying; they are rarely about triumph (there are exceptions, the most obvious is perhaps Henry V). They usually focus on human flaws such as hubris, lack of communication, or the characters as victims of cultural conventions.

That's very well put.

I guess it's opera that I have problems with. I love the first half of Aida, for example, but I want to go home before the last act starts. I love most of Carmen, too. But Aida and Carmen aren't the worst of the operas. Last spring the local opera house where I live performed Madama Butterfly, and it got rave reviews, but I just couldn't see it because of the terrible treatment of the female lead in this opera.

As for what you say about the Greeks, I agree totally! Some of those old stories are so sexist when you look at them that it is really beyond belief. I guess the worst I can think of is the tragedy about Agamemnon and his family. Agamemnon actually murdered his daughter Iphigenia to get a good wind to sail to Troy, although there are versions that "tone down" Agamemnon's horrible deed by saying that Iphigenia wasn't killed, she was just taken away to live somewhere with the gods, or something. Anyway, Clytemnestra, Agamemnon's wife and mother of Iphigenia, is more than furious, so with the help of her lover she kills Agamemnon when he comes home from Troy. Now her son Orestes considers it his duty to kill his mother to punish her for killing his father. Afterwards Orestes is pursued by the furies who demand that he must be punished for killing his mother. But the the goddess Athena intervenes. She declares that a son is right to kill his mother for killing his father, because the father is the son's (and the daughter's) only true parent. The mother is just some sort of incubator where the tiny little baby, that came out of its father's loins, grows to the proper size. Athena herself knows, because her father Zeus killed and ate up her mother Metis while Metis was pregnant with Athena, but Athena nevertheless literally rose out of her father's head.

So to summarize the horrible story about Athena and Agamemnon: Zeus was right to kill and eat Metis. Agamemnon was right to kill Iphigenia. Clytemnestra committed a horrible crime when she killed Agamemnon. Orestes was right to kill Clytemnestra. The furies were wrong to demand that Orestes should be punished. Athena was right to point out that the father is the only parent of the child.

Gaaaahh.

Ann

Ann wrote:I guess it's opera that I have problems with.

Opera is rarely original in its stories, which are usually adapted from other sources. Aida and Butterfly were adapted from other works; if you don't like the operas for their treatment of women, don't blame opera -- blame the original works.

You perhaps may want to explore opera beyond standard Italian rep. Try some Britten; though IMO Aschenbach in Death in Venice needs to be smacked with a rolled-up program and told to get a grip, you might like Peter Grimes or Billy Budd. Or try Adams. Or Ruders. How about The Rake's Progress by Stravinsky? Or Boris Godunov by Mussorgsky?

Thanks for the suggestions, Owlice!

Ann

AH! - hearts after my own.

Back in the 'school daze', I was just beginning to get over Annette Funicello, and my heart was captivated by a newfound starlet (astro-connection? ) named Natalie Wood. Then, wonder of wonders, one day while riding the city bus to my after-school job, the bus stopped at a city school and a herd of students boarded, among them one that could have easily passed for Ms. Wood's twin sister. The bus was crowded, so as she passed, I stood up and offered her my seat....and in the process, captured her eye.

I got to taking that bus regularly just so I could see her again....endangering my job a bit as it delivered me there some 20 minutes later than my appointed starting time. To shorten the story somewhat, it soon developed into one of those "when I close my eyes I see her" things....and I eventually worked up the courage (worked up?? TRY TO HOLD ME BACK!! *lol*) to ask her for her phone number. More shortening....after a couple of phone conversations, I asked her out. Our first date was to a movie she was excited about seeing - 'West Side Story'. Starring, guess who....as 'the girl named Maria'. How could this be bad?

I'll tell ya how. JoAnne (my heart-throb) was absolutely enamoured of this modern 'Romeo & Juliet' -- and all I could think was, "When you get STABBED, you DON'T start SINGING!!!!!" JoAnne was squawling like a baby....I was doing everything in my power to keep from guffawing out loud. I failed.

Despite this inauspicious beginning, our relationship survived for a few years anyway. But as young lives progress, paths part....and long story short, distance can be a killer. The love is still there to this day....but I still hate that stupid movie!

You're welcome, Ann.

Star*Hopper, I hate that movie, too, in part because, I'm sorry, Natalie Wood does not make a credible Maria. I love Natalie Wood, don't get me wrong here, but that was box office, not artistic, casting.

My favorite R&J on film is the Zeffirelli, not that I've seen it in recent decades, but when I did see it, it struck me as lovely. I saw a fabulous production of the ballet by NY City Ballet; it was a wonderful wonderful production (marred only by the memory of my companion for that performance). Juliet was danced by a 16-year-old who was simply astounding. The production was everything one would want it to be.

Is the parrot's aria from The Magic Flute? Sung by The Queen of the Night? People don't die to speak of in that opera, as far as I can remember. Instead, Mozart himself kicked the bucket soon after finishing this masterpiece.

Here is a lady singing the same aria as the parrot. I leave it to you to judge whose performance is the best one! (The video is uploaded by someone in Sweden, so you see some Swedish comments in the video. "Nattens drottning" means "Queen of the Night", and "Trollflöjten" means "The Magic Flute".)
Ann

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......I'm sorry guys, but while I would never begrudge anyone's liking of opera or dismiss it as "for the birds", I'm afraid it just basically isn't my cup o' tea. When it comes to birds & death stuff, I lean more in this direction:

neufer wrote:

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Soooo, the little cat was sitting next to me purring and the big cat was curled up on the floor when I hit "play" for this video... and then the little cat could not get off the sofa fast enough and the big cat ended up in the hallway. (I laughed my head off, of course! Poor kitties, but wow, so funny to see their reaction!)

Ann wrote:Here is a lady

That's not just some lady; that's Lucia Popp!

owlice wrote:
Soooo, the little cat was sitting next to me purring and the big cat was curled up on the floor when I hit "play" for this video... and then the little cat could not get off the sofa fast enough and the big cat ended up in the hallway. (I laughed my head off, of course! Poor kitties, but wow, so funny to see their reaction!)

Have they heard Jabberwren sing The Queen of the Night yet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Flute wrote:
<<Mozart evidently wrote keeping in mind the skills of the singers intended for the premiere, which included both virtuosi and ordinary comic actors, asked to sing for the occasion. Thus, the vocal lines for Papageno and Monostatos are often stated first in the strings so the singer can find his pitch, and are frequently doubled by instruments. In contrast, Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer, who premiered the role of the Queen of the Night, evidently needed little such help: this role is famous for its difficulty. A particularly demanding aria is the Queen of the Night's "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen" ("The vengeance of Hell boils in my heart"), which reaches a high F6 (1396.9 HZ), rare in opera. The Magic Flute is noted for its prominent Masonic elements; Schikaneder and Mozart were Masons and lodge brothers. The opera is also influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, and can be regarded as an allegory advocating enlightened absolutism. The Queen of the Night represents a dangerous form of obscurantism or, according to some interpreters, contemporary Roman Catholicism. Her antagonist Sarastro symbolises the enlightened sovereign who rules according to principles based on reason, wisdom, and nature. The story itself portrays the education of mankind, progressing from chaos through religious superstition to rationalistic enlightenment, by means of trial (Tamino) and error (Papageno), ultimately to make "the Earth a heavenly kingdom, and mortals like the gods" ("Dann ist die Erd' ein Himmelreich, und Sterbliche den Göttern gleich." This couplet is sung in the finales to both acts.)>>

I searched the web to find somthing to add to this thread; and I found out that opera is a browser! http://www.opera.com/browser/download/ Does anyone have it?

orin stepanek wrote:I searched the web to find somthing to add to this thread; and I found out that opera is a browser! http://www.opera.com/browser/download/ Does anyone have it?

I have Opera, but rarely use it. Firefox is my default browser, and if I need another, I usually use Safari.

neufer wrote:Have they heard Jabberwren sing The Queen of the Night yet

No, nor will they, something for which everyone is grateful! (I much prefer singing in the bottom, rather than the top, of my range; the cats prefer that, too!)

I do have that aria stuck in my head now, though....

owlice wrote:

neufer wrote:
Have they heard Jabberwren sing The Queen of the Night yet

No, nor will they, something for which everyone is grateful! (I much prefer singing in the bottom, rather than the top, of my range; the cats prefer that, too!)

I do have that aria stuck in my head now, though....

I can fix that:

You dog!!!!!!

And right back atcha:

orin stepanek wrote:I searched the web to find somthing to add to this thread; and I found out that opera is a browser! http://www.opera.com/browser/download/ Does anyone have it?

I use it all the time! Only when something demands Explorer do I change browsers.

Ann

Friends don't let friends use Explorer. Please define "demands Explorer".

Rob