Starship Asterisk*

don't cd manufacturers tell/recommend that discs be kept out of the sun? so why is it the "message from earth" is right on top in full exposure? i guess whoever wants to read the disc better have really good disc recovery software.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/ ... ix_big.jpg

If one looks at the front end of the scoop containing the martian soil, there seems to be a strange-looking adhesion effect. What it reminds me of is the appearance of the residue that might be left in a crepe pan when removing a crepe and a portion of the thinnest part of the crepe stays in the pan. (Sorry for the crazy description, but I just couldn't think of anything else.)

On the right inside wall of the scoop, the appearance reminds me of a slurry of cement that has just barely begun to harden, thus the adherence to the side. (EDIT: Actually, the right side as one views the picture, NOT the right side of the scoop. Apologies for the improper description.)

Further, inside the scoop, behind the frontmost material, it appears as if the soil is adhering/clumping together, and not falling downward to the bottom of the scoop as one might expect.

None of these manifest the behavior I would expect of either dry sand, or dry sandy soil. The adherence effects of sand or soil I'm familiar with here on Earth are due to either moisture and/or organic matter.

Can anybody provide some insight on what (other than moisture or organic matter) might be causing the manifestations visible in the picture?

iampete wrote: On the right inside wall of the scoop, the appearance reminds me of a slurry of cement that has just barely begun to harden, thus the adherence to the side.

Right side of the scoop on the image or right side of the scoop as seen from the hinge? At the left outerside of the scoop, as seen in the image, some material is adhering. Images as when digging in wet clay pop up with me.

iampete wrote:Further, inside the scoop, behind the frontmost material, it appears as if the soil is adhering/clumping together, and not falling downward to the bottom of the scoop as one might expect.

None of these manifest the behavior I would expect of either dry sand, or dry sandy soil. The adherence effects of sand or soil I'm familiar with here on Earth are due to either moisture and/or organic matter.

When you examine the dust that has been picked up when Phoenix landed, there are only a few grains are sufficiently large to be characterized as sand. These are mainly found at the right side of the image. They are about 100 μm. Nevertheless inside the scoop larger clumps are visible.



In this image, mainly at the left side, the small grains are smaller than 63 μm, below which granular meterial is called 'silt'. As to what i see, there is material in the range of 10 to 20 μm. This material is very angular, compared with the larger grains, which are more rounded. Angularity enhances both the angle of internal friction (φ) and the angle of repose of a material.

Start Editted and added later:
Based on the image above i wrote a very rough particle size analysis script, using image processing techniques. These provide the following results:

• d10 = 12 μm
  d30 = 20 μm
  d50 = 25 μm
  d60 = 38 μm
  d90 = 120 μm
  p = d90/d10 = 10 (gradation)
  U = d60/d10 = 3 (Coefficient of uniformity)
  Cc = d30*d30/(d60*d10) = 0.9 (Coefficient of curvature)

d10 is a particle size of which 10% of the volume of the particles is smaller.
End Editted and added later:

I would not be suprised that when a triaxial test could be performed on the material, values for the friction angles of 45 degrees would be found. A rough translation: a heap of material with a slope of 45 degrees is on the brink of becoming instable. Ordinary dry sand has a friction angle of 30 to 40 degrees. Very rounded gravel has an angle of 25 to 30 degrees. Crushed or broken rock (very angular!) 40 to 50 degrees, sometimes 55 degrees.

For a dry soil it does not matter whether it is frozen or not. If the soil was frozen with some liquid in between, angles of 90 degrees are possible. Water is a possible candidate for a pore liquid, specially due to the nature of water to adhere at the contact points between grains. Frozen carbon dioxide is rather unlikely, however not to be excluded.

Another effect that may contribute to the steep angle of the material inside the scoop is the effect of the sidewalls of the scoop. These enhance the slope stability, by means of extra friction.

Great idea to include a cd with the lander ! I wonder how the Martians will play it! Probably use a cd player they got at Walmart last year ! haha

When we go there with manned landings in 30 years we can test how the cd survived. It probably will. Can you imagine what a cd collector would someday pay for this specific cd !

I see three places where dirt spilled on the lander a little.

The soil sticks to the bucket, as the action of digging imparts heat and the cold temp then freezes it to the bucket seconds later. CO2 or some nitrogen etc. depending on the realtime temp.

Mars gravity is less than Earth's so the angle of loose material will be steeper than on Earth ? yes ? for the same thing.

kovil wrote:Mars gravity is less than Earth's so the angle of loose material will be steeper than on Earth ? yes ? for the same thing.

1. The driving force for a particle to roll down a slope, is gravity.
2. The friction of the particle with other particles is a fraction of the normal (perpendicular) force, being gravity.
3. When a particle slides down, the driving force is larger than the friction

Driving force and resisting force are both gravity related, so the slope angle does not depend on gravity. Exception: zero gravity.

Hello all,

This is not to be taken seriously, but I just had to post it somewhere.

While looking over the 2008 June 8 APOD image of the Phoenix Lander about to place a scoop of soil into the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer (TEGA) I noticed a very interesting play of light and shadow.



I think it looks very similar to the silhouette of a person being reflected in a shiny piece of the landers scoop.

I hope I linked the image correctly. If not, just check out the June 8th image. Look a little right of top/center in the area of the "swivel?" portion of the scoop arm.

Have fun Conspiracy Theorists.

Ender

Right in the centre of that little bucket load .. are those Martian Rabbit turds?

Hello Enderswolf,

I wouldn't worry too much about it, it's probably the same guy who left the two footprints at the lower left going under Phoenix.

Regarding the Phoenix DVD. In the information that is brought up when using the Phoenix Lander link in the explanation it states:-

"The Phoenix DVD is made of a special silica glass designed to withstand the Martian environment, lasting for hundreds (if not thousands) of years on the surface while it awaits discoverers.

The text just below the center of the disk reads:

“This archive, provided to the NASA Phoenix mission by The Planetary Society, contains literature and art (Vison of Mars), greetings from Mars visionaries of our day, and names of 21st century Earthlings who wanted to send their names to Mars. This DVD-ROM is designed to be read on personal computers in 2007. Information is stored in a spiral groove on the disc. A laser beam can scan the groove when metallized or a microscope can be used. Very small bumps and holes represent the zeroes and ones of digital information. The groove is about 0,74 microns wide. "

That may help in answering some of the points in some posts above.

Thanks much David.

Good thing The Planetary Society didn't use Beta for their medium, how would the Martians ever play that, they'd need a time machine to get the technology. lol

Perhaps stone carvings are the best medium for preservation yet discovered or tried.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080608.html

The martians are checking out the lander?
Orin

Martian rabbit turds .. that's what I think the Blueberries are. Silcone creatures, eating minerals (damp mud would tast delicious to them) and shitting out little round turds. But will the rabbits have PCs that play CDs or are they using casettes .. or worse yet .. books?

kovil wrote:Thanks much David.

Good thing The Planetary Society didn't use Beta for their medium, how would the Martians ever play that, they'd need a time machine to get the technology. lol

Perhaps stone carvings are the best medium for preservation yet discovered or tried.

• --------------------------------------------
  Published on Thursday, March 1, 2001 by Agence France Presse
  Afghan Taliban Begin Destruction of Ancient Buddha Statues
  http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm
  
  KABUL - <<Ignoring an international outcry, Afghanistan's puritanical Taliban Islamic militia began demolishing statues across the country on Thursday, including two towering ancient stone Buddhas. The two massive Bamiyan Buddhas, carved into a sandstone cliff near the provincial capital in central Afghanistan, stand 50 meters (165 feet) and 34.5 meters (114 feet) tall and were built around the second century. Taliban Minister of Information and Culture Qudratullah Jamal told AFP the destruction of scores of pre-Islamic figures, designed to stop the worshipping of "false idols," had begun throughout the country. He said militiamen started wrecking the almost 2,000-year-old Buddhist masterpieces in the central province of Bamiyan, including the world's tallest standing Buddha, after sunrise. "The work started about five hours ago but I do not know how much of it (the two Bamiyan Buddhas) has been destroyed," Jamal said. "It will be destroyed by every means. All the statues are being destroyed.">>
  --------------------------------------------

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

The Taliban? Are you sure the U.S. did not use missiles to destroy the statues, and then blamed the Taliban? Propaganda is priceless when you need to kill a million people so you can steal their oil or build a pipeline through their country .. and the Taliban had said 'No' .. because they know where the international corporate beast treads the local daughters are raped. None of that political business going on on Mars, though, that we know of, unless it's underground.

Destroying religious artifacts not of their own religion seems to be the hallmark of religious fanatics everywhere, anytime. Witness the crusades.

Oops, that's me. Sorry guys. I try to make these photos look like they're taken on the moon, or on mars, but it's no easy job believe me. Nice catch.

Jimmy Snyder
Assistant to the Properties Manager,
Department of Public Relations,
Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Witness the crusades. An exceptionally high order of civilization (those calling themselves Muslims) slowly conquers and makes a healthy, hygenic, and educated place of the dark heart of Europe which is populated by backwards populations calling themselves Catholics, Protestants, etc.) Finally, the rabble raise rebellion and drive out the invaders, Europe then reverting to its original degenerate cultures, with the Black Plague resulting. Foretold in the stars? Who knows. In any case, Iraq and Iran both allow religions of all kinds to prosper within their borders, but that doesn't save them from the greed of the international corporate community which has no God but money. "My kngdom is not of this world," saith the Lord who created the heavens, the earth, and all which is therein.

Sputnick wrote:Martian rabbit turds .. that's what I think the Blueberries are. Silcone creatures, eating minerals (damp mud would tast delicious to them) and **** out little round turds. But will the rabbits have PCs that play CDs or are they using casettes .. or worse yet .. books?

Are you sure they're Martian rabbit turds? I've never seen a Martian rabbit!
Orin

They might have been a crossbreed betwen rabbits and xynguwiddles .. the latter being a breed native to southeastern slopes on the Olympus Mons. Sorry about that.

There are all sorts of creatures on Mars - I mean Barsoom - that could be playing "take me to your lander".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barsoom#Pe ... nd_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barsoom#Fauna

WHEW! Thank you jimmysnyder! You know after all these years I have commend you for your wilyness. I would never have been able to stay quiet for that long. Hmmmm.......1950?...... ROSWELL!!!!!!!!! Right? You ol' son-of-a-gun 8)

we need more conclusive evidence before we need to bring out the tin foil hats...extraterestarals are unlikely to look like rabbits

martians...they do have one in area 51 you know

Extraterestials are unlikely to look like rabbits? You don't watch the several Star Trek spinoffs, do you. I kind of identify with the creators of those shows, except come to think of it, they seldom show little creatures on those other planets, just the main creature aliens, some of whose women are pretty hot, similar to the young woman sitting beside me on the next computer .. talk about ALIEN BODIES O MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!