Starship Asterisk*

I've seen this news item, but I'm not sure I understand this efficiency. Are they trying to say that there is just as much matter/energy coming out as is falling in?

If so, that seems to contradict the idea that nothing can escape a black hole. (Yes, I'm not a physicist.)

I've read about black hole rotation. I'd imagine that the matter inside a black hole is quite rigid. If you had a large black hole rotating faster and faster, eventually the matter at the surface would approach the speed of light. Could these efficient black holes be cases where the matter falliing in is ejected because the surface speed of the object is at the speed of light and therefore escapes?

Hello DanEspen

A Black Hole is an ultra dense plasma matter object.

http://plasmadictionary.llnl.gov/ter...age=list&ABC=Q
Term: Quark-gluon plasma
Definition:
"A state of matter in which quarks and gluons, the fundamental constituents of matter, are no longer confined within the dimensions of the nucleon, but free to move around over a volume in which a high enough temperature and/or density prevails. This type of plasma has recently, 2/2000, been observed indirectly by the European laboratory for particle physics, CERN. These plasmas result in effective quark masses which are much larger than the actual masses. Calculations for the transition temperature to this new state give values between 140 and 180 MeV. This is more than 10,000 times the nominal fusion plasma temperature of 10keV. 150 MeV is the characteristic energy of a particle in a plasma at roughly 1.5 trillion Kelvin. This corresponds to an energy density in the neighborhood of seven times that of nuclear matter. Temperatures and energy densities above these values existed in the early universe during the first few microseconds after the Big Bang. "


http://columbia-physics.net/faculty/gyulassy_main.htm

Professor: Miklos Gyulassy

Research
quote:"I head the nuclear theory group at Columbia. Our work concentrates on the physics of ultra-dense nuclear matter, called the quark-gluon plasma. Current experiments at the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider RHIC at BNL require the development of detailed parton/ hadron transport theory in order to interpret the data and to test specific signatures that can reveal the physical properties of this new state of matter. We have developed new techniques to solve ultra-relativistic non-linear Boltzmann equations and relativistic hydrodynamics to study collective flow signatures, such as elliptic transverse flow at RHIC. In addition, these transport models are used to predict pion interferometry correlations that probe the global freeze-out space-time geometry of high energy nuclear reactions. Recently we concentrate on the problem of non-abelian radiative energy loss and its application as a novel tomographic tool to study the density evolution in the expanding gluon plasma on times scales ~10^-23 sec. We predicted that high transverse momentum jets of hadrons produced in nuclear reactions should be strongly quenched by radiative energy loss induced by the high opacity of the produced plasma. This prediction has been recently confirmed by the PHENIX and STAR experiments at RHIC, and we have deduced from the quenching pattern that gluon densities about 100 times greater than in ground state nuclei have been attained in Au+Au reactions at Ecm = 200 AGeV. At such high densities matter is predicted via lattice QCD to be in the deconfined phase. We continue to refine and extend the theory of jet tomography in order to predict the quenching pattern of heavy quarks as well as high pT correlations of monojets. Another area of interest is the dynamics of baryon number transport and hyperonization at RHIC. Preliminary data provide possible evidence of novel topological gluon junction dynamics that we first tested on data at lower SPS/CERN energies."

Yes Black holes have the power to stop light from escaping but they also develop power by electomagnetic convectional currents that create eddys that are so powerful they eject matter thousands of light years into deep space.
Notes on Plasma universe
http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downl ... fv%8En.pdf
example
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970613.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970405.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060412.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010905.html

If you look towards the bright central region you will notice a spiral of dust starting around 10:00, traversing over the top while expanding outward, and finishing down around 7:00 position. Very reminiscent of a galactic spiral arm.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/ ... pCXC_f.jpg

Hello BMAONE23

What is it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,has it got a name.
I collect links,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,smile

...deleted.......

harry wrote:Hello DanEspen

Hi.

A Black Hole is an ultra dense plasma matter object.

As I said, I'm not a physicist. I used the term 'rigid'.

Plasma sort implies something like a gas, but the 'stuff' in a black hole is under enormous pressure. Surely whatever form that matter takes, it's locked together in the sense that a rotating body would not allow layers to shear against one another.

This type of plasma has recently, 2/2000, been observed indirectly by the European laboratory for particle physics, CERN.

These plasmas are at high temperature, but they are only at pressure for the smallest amount of time. Banging au atoms together and watching the subatomic particles fly apart doesn't sound like the same thing as having those same particles jammed together in a black hole.

Yes Black holes have the power to stop light from escaping but they also develop power by electomagnetic convectional currents that create eddys that are so powerful they eject matter thousands of light years into deep space.

Yes, that's what these observations seem to indicate. I tought I read once that the energy/matter leaving the hole never crossed the event horizon, but these observations seem to indicate otherwise because of the amount leaving.

I've often wondered about the rotational energy of black holes, especially if it's bounded. Like a rotating skater pulling in his arms, matter failing into the black hole keeps adding speed to the rotation. There's an absolute limit to that speed, 'c'. Something in the system has got to give. Either the material in the hole is a perfect fluid and the top layer can move against the lower layers or those top layers have to leave the vicinity of the black hole. Perhaps as the speed at the surface reaches c.

hello

Plasma takes many forms

Gas is the most common that we come across and many people do not know that ultra dense matter exists. Some call it degenerate matter , but this falls into ultra dense plasma matter.

The ultra dense matter that I'm talking about is found in stars, neutrons stars, quark stars and black holes.

If you want more info let me know.

I'm trying to hold back from posting links. Bad habit

harry wrote:I'm trying to hold back from posting links. Bad habit

Links a bad habit? Links are fine with me.

I even read a few that you posted.

I just finished probing Google with the key words 'black hold fluid' and I see that my memory has failed me again.

Some scientists believe that the material of a black hole might be some kind of superfluid. I think the universe is even more interesting when it acts in non-intuitive ways. I'm trying to imagine a ball of superfluid spinning at near relativistic speeds. Specifically what would happen as the speed buildup causes some parts of the fluid to approach c.

Well, my little brain can't grasp it.

PS: Just last week I read the sciam article on the experiments at the RHIC. This is great stuff. We need to keep exploring the nature of the universe. This knowledge may not have a practical application, but it's still worth every dollar we spend figuring this stuff out.

Superdense matter, at least according to current theories, seems to act more like a low-friction fluid, or even a superfluid, than any sort of rigid material. Neutron stars are a good example; theoretical models suggest their cores are some sort of neutron superfluid, which may be partly responsible for the huge magnetic fields they sometimes have.

As for black holes, until we have a working theory of quantum gravity, we'll never really know what they're 'made of'. As far as we know by the limitations of current theory, there's no form of matter than can withstand those gravitational forces, and we end up with a singularity... which admittedly bugs a lot of physicists, as in general they try to avoid infinities in their calculations.

Oh, regarding relativistic rotation, remember that as something approaches the speed of light, it requires ever more energy to continue to accelerate, eventually requiring an infininte amount of energy to reach the actual speed of light. So even though black holes continue to obtain angular momentum, their gains in rotational speed would continue to diminish.

Hello


Info on neutron stars: quote from link:http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/nstar.html
imagine starting at the surface of a neutron star and burrowing your way down. The surface gravity is about 10^11 times Earth's, and the magnetic field is about 10^12 Gauss, which is enough to completely mess up atomic structure: for example, the ground state binding energy of hydrogen rises to 160 eV in a 10^12 Gauss field, versus 13.6 eV in no field. In the atmosphere and upper crust, you have lots of nuclei, so it isn't primarily neutrons yet. At the top of the crust, the nuclei are mostly iron 56 and lighter elements, but deeper down the pressure is high enough that the equilibrium atomic weights rise, so you might find Z=40, A=120 elements eventually. At densities of 10^6 g/cm^3 the electrons become degenerate, meaning that electrical and thermal conductivities are huge because the electrons can travel great distances before interacting.

Deeper yet, at a density around 4x10^11 g/cm^3, you reach the "neutron drip" layer. At this layer, it becomes energetically favorable for neutrons to float out of the nuclei and move freely around, so the neutrons "drip" out. Even further down, you mainly have free neutrons, with a 5%-10% sprinkling of protons and electrons. As the density increases, you find what has been dubbed the "pasta-antipasta" sequence. At relatively low (about 10^12 g/cm^3) densities, the nucleons are spread out like meatballs that are relatively far from each other. At higher densities, the nucleons merge to form spaghetti-like strands, and at even higher densities the nucleons look like sheets (such as lasagna). Increasing the density further brings a reversal of the above sequence, where you mainly have nucleons but the holes form (in order of increasing density) anti-lasagna, anti-spaghetti, and anti-meatballs (also called Swiss cheese).

When the density exceeds the nuclear density 2.8x10^14 g/cm^3 by a factor of 2 or 3, really exotic stuff might be able to form, like pion condensates, lambda hyperons, delta isobars, and quark-gluon plasmas. Here's a gorgeous figure (from http://www.astroscu.unam.mx/neutrones/N ... Star-I.gif) that shows the structure of a neutron star"


I did not put the link in, it came with the quote:

In my opinion the density would be upto 10^15 to 10^18 that is heavy.

This APOD image has certainly led me on an interesting tour of the universe. Harry, thanks for the feedback.

Google turns up some really interesting information with the keywords "rotation relativistic speed" adding "black hole" gets closer to the subject at hand.

I see that some neutron stars show apparent surface velocities of .1 c. Getting close, but not there.

My earlier assumption of rigidity leads back to a 1916 paper by Einstein. With the forces involved and the implications for relativity, perfect rigidity may be impossible.

My initial thought was that the black hole didn't require any energy to speed up, it just gets smaller and therefore spins faster.

If it collapsed to a singularity, well I can't imagine that, but something really radical would happen if it could do that and possibly spin would be the least of the problems.

There are also online sources discussing relativistic jets of matter leaving black holes.

So, I'm off back to Google to see if I can find a connection between quantum spin and black hole spin. When do these quantum particles get close enough to each other that they all join up and the black hole spin and the quantum spin become one and the same. Just kidding. I think.

Hello DanEspen

I have to break my habit to give you more info.

My comp cannot search for some reason. Hopefully by next week or so i may be able to.


Anyway from surfing the net link to link info to info i got this info.

smile,,,,,,,,,, don't let Makc look at it,,,,,,,i don't think he likes too many links
First lets look at jets from Black Holes and Stars.

Read this link on the formation of stars

http://www.stsci.edu/stsci/meetings/shst2/ballyj.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060203.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030127.html


Read this on Black holes ejections.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971202.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010905.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap031128.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060412.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970405.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970613.html
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/merlin/about/layman/jet.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041211.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html

about Black Holes
http://cosmology.berkeley.edu/Education/BHfaq.html

----------------------------------------------------------------
What happens to matter when it enters Black Holes, neutron stars and quark stars.

Matter degenerates down to an ultra dense plasma matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://plasmadictionary.llnl.gov/terms. ... age=detail
Term: Quark-gluon plasma
Definition: A state of matter in which quarks and gluons, the fundamental constituents of matter, are no longer confined within the dimensions of the nucleon, but free to move around over a volume in which a high enough temperature and/or density prevails. This type of plasma has recently, 2/2000, been observed indirectly by the European laboratory for particle physics, CERN. These plasmas result in effective quark masses which are much larger than the actual masses. Calculations for the transition temperature to this new state give values between 140 and 180 MeV. This is more than 10,000 times the nominal fusion plasma temperature of 10keV. 150 MeV is the characteristic energy of a particle in a plasma at roughly 1.5 trillion Kelvin. This corresponds to an energy density in the neighborhood of seven times that of nuclear matter. Temperatures and energy densities above these values existed in the early universe during the first few microseconds after the Big Bang.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

When jets from stars and black holes eject this plasma the subatomic particals are no longer controlled by the super massive electromagnetic and gravitational forces that allow the subatomic partical to move freely.

So they reform atoms and one such atom is proton to hydrogen. Other atoms are formed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

the reverse occurs with heavy atoms entering star and black holes. They break down to protons before they break down to ultra dense plasma matter.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 20410.html
Astronomers announced Wednesday the discovery of evidence for a new state of matter heavier than any previously known, equivalent in density to stuffing all of Earth into an auditorium.

The apparent discovery, made with NASA's orbiting Chandra X-Ray Observatory, provides support for a two-decade-old theory suggesting the existence of so-called "strange quark stars." The findings were discussed at a press conference at NASA headquarters in Washington D.C.

The research involved two stars expected to be neutron stars, remnants of exploded stars that are composed primarily of neutrons and would be very dense. One of the stars, however, was found to be much smaller than expected.

It is too small to be explained by the theory that governs neutron stars, said Jeremy Drake, an astrophysicist at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

Drake and his colleagues examined a star called RXJ-1856. It was found to be about 1.2 million degrees Fahrenheit (700,000 degrees Celsius) and has a diameter of roughly 7 miles (11.3 kilometers). Drake said it's possible they measured a hot spot, but he thinks it's more likely that the observations are correct and the theory of neutron stars needs revision.

A paper on the work will appear in the June 20 issue of the Astrophysical Journal.

The other object, called 3C-58, became a new star in the sky in the year 1181, when it exploded. According to neutron star theory, some of the material collapsed into a dense core, while the rest was cast off into space.

Now, more than eight centuries later, researchers observed the remaining core with certain expectations about how much it should have cooled off. The star' temperature is less than a million degrees Celsius, far below what was expected.

Our observations suggest that the core of this star is made of a new kind of exotic material, said David Helfand, professor of astronomy and astrophysics at Columbia University in New York. "It appears that neutron stars are not made of pure neutrons after all."

Instead, each of the stars in the two new studies may contain exotic particles called quarks.

Michael Turner, a widely respected cosmologist at the University of Chicago, said both studies appear to show that Nature is able to produce forms of matter that scientists have been unable to create in laboratories.

Quarks are thought to be fundamental building blocks of matter. But they have never been observed alone, instead always existing together as the components of other matter. If they were liberated inside a star, they could theoretically be compressed into a smaller sphere, researchers said.

The results "suggest the existence of a new state of matter that's made of undifferentiated quarks," Turner said. "If this is indeed the case, then astronomers have provided us with a stunning insight on quarks."

Turner said powerful telescopes like Chandra are making it more and more possible to use the universe as a laboratory to study Nature's tiniest phenomena.

Norman Glendenning is one of those researchers who has been unable to isolate quarks in a lab. The senior scientist emeritus at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory said that if the observations are correct, then RXJ-1856 appears to be made only of quarks, and as so it would have a sharp edge, not the gradual fuzzy outer surface typical of neutron stars and other stars.

If all that is so, this star is in a class quite by itself and will be an astonishing discovery of fundamental significance, Glendenning said.

And there may be deeper implications to the two discoveries.

If the work is correct, "it will tells us that there were two paths that the universe might have taken" at inception, Glendenning said. The other universe, had it developed instead, might have been limited in the sorts of matter that were created.

It made all the difference in the world that the universe evolved along one path and not the other, or else we would not be here to contemplate its wonders, Glendenning said.

Anne Kinney, director of the Astronomy and Physics Division at NASA's Office of Space Science, cautioned, "I'd like to emphasize that this is evidence for, not proof of, a new form of matter."
----------------------------------------------------------------

So! there is much to be learnt.