Globular Clusters and why the "Big Bang" is Wrong!

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Qev
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Post by Qev » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:35 pm

orin stepanek wrote:Not to pick nits; but everyone talks about space expanding. Isn't it the universe that is expanding rather than space? I rather believe that space is infinite and that it is the universe that is expanding. I tend to separate the two. :lol:
Orin
They're not really separate. Space, and all it contains, is the universe (or I suppose one could say that space is a property of the universe). Space may be infinite; we don't know for sure, but we do know it's awfully large. :)
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Post by Martin » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:09 pm

Ok, 1st there is no direct evidence which unequivocally supports a theory that space is not infinite in size -only speculation suggests this. Second, it would be impractical to use a balloon as structurally comparable to our universe -It is not relative :!:

To suggest that the universe has a shape implies that it has boundaries/limitations. This, in turn, implies that there exists something beyond the shape that “it” is not part of :!:

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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:32 am

Finding the edge of the universe is like finding a corner of a sphere, the geometry does not exist.

As I've stated before, the less dense the universe becomes, distances become smaller and times becomes slower to the point if using ∞, it would take ∞ amount of time to move 1/∞ distance. Explained in the fundamentals of relativity, a person traveling to the edge of the universe would not notice any difference in relative time and would continue on their journey "forever" while a "stationary" observer would see them as slowing (red shift) nearing the "edge".

The edge of the universe is where time and space (or space/time) no longer exists, a single point with no direction that cannot be crossed and requires a geometry that fails in a four dimensional universe.

Some theories suggest a "toroid" shaped universe that folds back on itself, I find that theory doubtful, the mathematics takes an abundance of liberties to explain the model.
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Post by dcmcp » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:02 am

Martin wrote:To suggest that the universe has a shape implies that it has boundaries/limitations. This, in turn, implies that there exists something beyond the shape that “it” is not part of :!:
Er - no. This is difficult to discuss because it is outside our normal perceptions, and our vocabulary cannot cope with the concepts.

The universe can be finite and yet have no boundaries.
The universe is all there is: there ain't no more. The question "what is outside the universe" is meaningless and more a problem of semantics (our limited vocabulary again) than of physics or cosmology.

Read the references I suggested in this post earlier in the thread. It won't take long and they go a little way towards explaining the issue.

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Post by harry » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:55 am

Hello All

Space is a word

Its definition will sometimes change on its application.

Universe and space are one of the same.

Infinite and therefore unable to expand.

If the universe is infinite than its density is constant over infinity. Although the density will change within the evolutioary parts of the universe.


Dr skeptic says:
As I've stated before, the less dense the universe becomes, distances become smaller and times becomes slower to the point if using ∞, it would take ∞ amount of time to move 1/∞ distance. Explained in the fundamentals of relativity, a person traveling to the edge of the universe would not notice any difference in relative time and would continue on their journey "forever" while a "stationary" observer would see them as slowing (red shift) nearing the "edge".
Years gone by, I would have said wow! to your explanation.
Today,I just disagree with it 100%.
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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:54 am

Years gone by, I would have said wow! to your explanation.
Today,I just disagree with it 100%.
I know you disagree, the difference is that my theory is supported by cutting-edge science providing a feasible model compiled in collaboration of the greatest minds leading the field.
Speculation ≠ Science

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what about age of universe?

Post by ckam » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:10 pm

dr, in your theory, were we ever able to travel back in time, we would never reach big bang. that is, in terms of time as laymen know it, our universe does indeed exist forever. moreover, in a theory there should be such a substitution t2(t1) that maps any time t1=T1 to arbitrary chosen t2=T2, as this is just a matter of coordinate system choise. in these new coordinates, the age of universe could be anything you want. this itself causes discussions like this one almost meaningless.

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Post by ckam » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:25 pm

astro_uk wrote:It would be very easy to spot stars with ages much greater than this, i.e 20Gyr, we don't see them. This implies one of two things: that we live in a very "special" young part of the universe, or that the whole observable Universe is young.
may I suggest third option?

consider the age of your body: 10+, 20+ , 30+? neverless, only 2% of your cells are older than 1 year... don't ask me where did I got that figure from, I don't remember the source, and I'm not sure it is correct, but it is irrelevant. the point is that stars' matter may undergo some "universal recycling" process and respawn young stars constantly (that is to explain young age of most stars).

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Post by astro_uk » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:44 pm

may I suggest third option?

consider the age of your body: 10+, 20+ , 30+? neverless, only 2% of your cells are older than 1 year... don't ask me where did I got that figure from, I don't remember the source, and I'm not sure it is correct, but it is irrelevant. the point is that stars' matter may undergo some "universal recycling" process and respawn young stars constantly (that is to explain young age of most stars).
Sure, but why don't we see any of them doing that? We see young stars and old stars, but none going old > young.

Plus if that was the case you pretty much have to ignore conservation of energy.

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Post by BMAONE23 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:00 pm

ckam,
I believe that it is your skin only that is continually renewed and replaced, with the type of skin (normal, scar, mole, etc) controlling the type of call produced for replacement. (Imagine if we could confuse a Scar cell to think it is a normal cell and to start reproducing normal cells). But I believe that the organ tissue (Heart, Lungs, Liver, Brian etc) ages and that is why we die from age related diseases.

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Post by ckam » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:19 pm

from what i know on body aging, the problem is rather evolutionary, because no positive change that happens to you after you made children can be inherited and therefore selected in forthcoming generations, and that's why we have just enough time to raise children but not more. the problem with organ cells is not that they cant reproduce themselves, but rather that they cant reproduce themselves right. after all, old people have skin too, but it looks sh|tty. end of off-topic.

as to stars, I didnt mean old stars transform themselves into young ones. but I mean there may be some process that allows matter contained in oldies to be "pulled out" and consumed in new star formation. i have no idea what that process could be or where an energy would come from... it is all dark matters (pun).

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Post by Qev » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:08 pm

Stellar material certainly recycles in some fashion or another. After all, red giants eject significant portions of their mass before moving on to whatever fate awaits them (white dwarf or supernova). Of course, these processes always enrich the matter with heavier elements, lending distinct characteristics to later generation stars.

The problem with the sort of recycling being proposed is that the stars with the lowest ratio of heavy elements also appear to be the oldest. And these oldest stars are never older than ~13Gyr. So either some force is causing every star in the galaxy to regenerate at exactly the same time (the last being ~13Gyr ago), or the Big Bang happened (which has a lot of evidence backing it), or something else we haven't thought of has happened.

As for bodies, a lot of your tissues can regenerate over time. Skin is a good example, our blood, some of our organs (eg. the liver); these cells can reproduce themselves to repair damage. Others, like muscle and most nerve tissue, do not. As ckam pointed out, the cells that do reproduce, unfortunately, can only do so a limited number of times, before genetic damage starts creeping in (the aglets on the end of your chromosomes fall off... stupid telomeres). That's part of what we call 'aging'.
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Re: what about age of universe?

Post by Dr. Skeptic » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:32 pm

ckam wrote:dr, in your theory, were we ever able to travel back in time, we would never reach big bang. that is, in terms of time as laymen know it, our universe does indeed exist forever. moreover, in a theory there should be such a substitution t2(t1) that maps any time t1=T1 to arbitrary chosen t2=T2, as this is just a matter of coordinate system choise. in these new coordinates, the age of universe could be anything you want. this itself causes discussions like this one almost meaningless.
It is only meaningless if one does not grasp the concepts.

Reaching the origin of the BB can be accomplished because space/time exists at that particular point in the universe. It is the (fluid) leading edge of the universe where space/time is being "created" where "normal" geometry fails.

If you require a more scientific definition of the "end point" of the universe, it would be: a point where it would take the age of the universe to move 1 planck's distance.
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Post by harry » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:30 am

Hello Qev


Your right about recycling within stars.

The dating process changes once a supernova or nova occcurs. Its like a new growth of skin.

==========================================
As for Dr Skeptic
I know you disagree, the difference is that my theory is supported by cutting-edge science providing a feasible model compiled in collaboration of the greatest minds leading the field.
Than providee this cutting edge evidence.

and the so called greatest minds.
[/quote]
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Post by Qev » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:23 pm

harry wrote:Your right about recycling within stars.

The dating process changes once a supernova or nova occcurs. Its like a new growth of skin.
The problem is that these stars are different from their predecessors. Each generation has a higher metal content than the last. This implies that at some, well-defined point in the past, there were no metals and all stars were pure hydrogen and helium.

Seeing as there's no known process that can significantly reverse this accumulation of metals in the interstellar medium (such a process would throw thermodynamics out the window), this poses a problem for an 'eternal, recycling universe', does it not? If the universe were eternal, due to stellar fusion there'd be no hydrogen or helium, only heavier elements.
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Post by Martin » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:02 pm

dcmcp

I thank you for the link. I understand it is the mainstream of thought but like the author said there is no certainty. Modern cosmology can only guess, though it is an educated guess at best.

It reminds me of the old saying "where ever you go-there you are". Most people even scientist vastly underestimate the power of human imagination and a non infinite/folded universe is a clear example thereof.

I whole heartedly disagree with this being a topic/discussion which is meaningless. Anyone who thinks the entire universe begins with the BB is greatly underestimating the vastness of the universe.

I have yet to hear a good argument as to why the BB cannot simply be a beginning of matter and energy opposed to the beginning of the "entire" universe.

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Global Clusters & Why the "Big Bang" is Wrong

Post by linx » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:47 pm

Hi Martin,

if the BB was just the beginning of matter & energy, what was the Universe before this state, apart from a void

Linx

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Post by Martin » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:40 pm

Well linx,

The universe was what it still is –“Space” and somewhere within in it "a" BB happened. After all isn't it highly presumptuous to think that there can only be 1 big bang (AND IT'S ALL OURS AND ONLY OURS!!) To assume that there can exist nothing before the BB and nothing beyond it is self serving and borderline religious.

This line of thought is so similar to old ideas where earth was the center of the universe -no wait now our sun is the center of the universe - no wait now our galaxy is the center and entire universe - no wait now all the observable matter that we are capable of detecting “currently” is the entire universe and nothing existed before it or beyond it. Does anyone see my point here?

I don’t believe the great mystery is “what was the universe before the BB” for it was what it is. I believe the mystery is what events caused energy to turn into matter and where did the energy come from. Perhaps it was just one reaction in a greater chain of events.

M-theory may hold the key to further understanding, eh?

:wink:
Last edited by Martin on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Global Clusters & why the "Big Bang" is Wrong

Post by linx » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:52 pm

Hi Martin & thanks for your reply

what does the 'Space' you speak of consist of please
thanks
Linx

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Post by astro_uk » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:56 pm

Hi Martin

I think you miss the point, if the BB is as linx believes the source of everything within our observable Universe, it is essentially irrelevant if there is anything outside. If there is it must be in some other dimension or of a such a different composition that it cannot interact with our own Universe. Otherwise we would feel its presence.

The BB may very well have gone off inside another already existing Universe, the fact is that as far as we can tell today, there is no way for us to know if this is the case, because all of the laws of physics only apply within our own BB sphere.

One relatively popular theory a while ago had BBs sort of budding off from each other. But once they formed they tended to be separate.

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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:17 pm

Martin wrote:dcmcp

I thank you for the link. I understand it is the mainstream of thought but like the author said there is no certainty. Modern cosmology can only guess, though it is an educated guess at best.

It reminds me of the old saying "where ever you go-there you are". Most people even scientist vastly underestimate the power of human imagination and a non infinite/folded universe is a clear example thereof.

I whole heartedly disagree with this being a topic/discussion which is meaningless. Anyone who thinks the entire universe begins with the BB is greatly underestimating the vastness of the universe.

I have yet to hear a good argument as to why the BB cannot simply be a beginning of matter and energy opposed to the beginning of the "entire" universe.
You almost have it. The BB can simply be the beginning of matter, energy ... and TIME!
With out time, age is meaningless as the same for infinity.
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Post by Martin » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:49 am

linx -

1st what does science tell us it consists of?


Astro_uk -

How can you say its irrelevant when the latest and greatest theories actually speak of its existence and it's interaction with our "universe". Such as Gravity, DM, DE , BB, String theories and the M-theory.....
I think everyone needs to jump on the relevant wagon here! It is both relevant and meaningful!


Dr. skeptic -

"With out time, age is meaningless as the same for infinity".

So time and infinity is relative?
Is time just a measurement of decay?
What about in distance? The time it takes an object to get to point B, what is decaying here other than the distance between point A and point B and the relative object?

So time has two meanings:
The decay of sub atomic particles and a reference for motion?

Remember, I am not a proffesional so I have just completely confused myself. I can't explain the science but I can try explain my reasoning.

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Post by Moonshadow » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:13 am

What an interesting thread!

So many things to respond to…

First, thanks to uk-astro, Qev, Dr. Skeptic, Martin and others for “keeping it real”.

Harry’s skepticism seems to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. Mathematics is the language of science. Belief and opinion are worthless unless they can by supported by the math. If a theory relies on the assumption that 1+1=3 then the theory is wrong. (end of discussion!)

A hundred years ago Einstein used some very simple mathematical principles (Maxwell’s equations and the Lorentz boost) to give the world the “theory” of Special Relativity. At the time these predictions seemed absurd but experiment after experiment has proved SR to be right to an amazing certainty. Math does not lie.

Later he used a more complicated mathematical concept (Riemann geometry) to show that gravity propagates at the speed of light and developed the “theory” of General Relativity. He once again amazed the world with the correctness of his predictions.

If you disagree with GR or any other theory provided by actual scientists, then prove it! Show the math, if it’s true, I’ll listen to you otherwise…

Harry might benefit from relying less on internet articles than published, edited and peer reviewed articles that exist on paper.

Anyway, I have some questions that maybe some of the “big dogs” mentioned above can help me with.

To uk-astro:

What is the reason that a magnetic field cannot penetrate and exit the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole? What does happen to the field lines that enter the event horizon and why don’t they emerge to satisfy Gauss’ law? (this has been bugging me for a while).
Wheeler said that “black holes have no hair” but it seems to me that this might be peach fuzz.

If a magnetic field can “flow through” the event horizon then the charged particles that fall into the horizon would be partially responsible for creating the incredible jets that expel plasma for thousands of light years. The velocity of such particles as they approach the speed of light might account for the huge power of the jets. If the field lines don’t flow through the horizon, then what do they actually do?

Also, there is a very interesting analogy between gravity and electro-magnetism (a.k.a. GEM). Do you think there exists an analog between black holes created by high mass density and something created by high enough charge density?

To dcmp:

I think the balloon analogy is a very good model to explain the lack of an “edge” to the universe. We know from linear algebra that dimensions within a metric need to be orthogonal. Anyone using a simple oscilloscope understands this. Since we humans can really only visualize 3 dimensions, one can imagine a spatially 2 dimension universe combined with one dimension of time. The surface area of the balloon represents “space” and the radius of the balloon represents time. This provides a model of the universe that is “finite but unbounded” consistent with the current theory. Even inflation “falls” into this model since a non-linear pressure is required to blow up the balloon. &#61514 :? ;

To Martin:

M-theory is the only reasonable solution (in my opinion) that can compete with the concept that time began at the Big Bang. I’m waiting for an answer from minds like Ed Whitten’s for this.

Moonshadow

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Post by harry » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:58 am

Hello All

Moon shadow said
Harry’s skepticism seems to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works
Skepticism of what?

You have got to be joking. Maths is my pet subject and I know its power and its faults if read by others who do not understand maths.

As for science I'm too long in the tooth to see BS from uranus.
==========================================

Maths does not lie, but its application can be made to lie. Many scientists have applied their maths in good faith, lack of knowledge prevented them from finding the accurate answers.

It is a journey, and some of these errors are stepping stones for others to work from and move on.

Name me one scientist who has not made great errors.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by astro_uk » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:53 am

Hi Moonshadow

the magnetic field question is interesting, l'm not really au fait with BHs to be honest, but fortunately my office is opposite one of the worlds foremost BH experts, I'll ask later today and let you know.
Also, there is a very interesting analogy between gravity and electro-magnetism (a.k.a. GEM). Do you think there exists an analog between black holes created by high mass density and something created by high enough charge density?
Regarding this, I'm fairly sure that this is not really practical. The reason BHs can form is because gravity is purely attractive, wherease electromagnetism can also be repulsive. So if you try and cram particles of the same charge together it takes more and more energy to get them closer together. I think the energy needed becomes massive very quickly, in fact a back of the envelope calculation shows that if you want to make two protons touch, classically the energy required is equal to the rest mass of a proton. When you start putting large amounts of energy in small spaces like that strange QM effects generally turn up that complicate things no end.

Of course you also have to try and avoid opposite charges being attracted and neutralising your compressed particles.

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