Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:31 am
I'd love to read about one. Link me up!harry wrote: There are mechanisms for breaking down a neutron star.
Rather than just closing the door on some issues go the distance and find the answer.
APOD and General Astronomy Discussion Forum
https://asterisk.apod.com/
I'd love to read about one. Link me up!harry wrote: There are mechanisms for breaking down a neutron star.
Rather than just closing the door on some issues go the distance and find the answer.
No, what I'm saying is that I'm not going to go look for it. If you have evidence to back your position, please present it. I'm not your student, and you're not my professor giving me a research project.harry wrote: Are you saying that you have look and cannot find.
Or you do not understand the ups and downs of a neutron star.
Just by your statement, i understand you lack the info. If you are happy with that info so be it.The fact is there is no known theory in mainstream science that allows you to destroy a neutron star. As Qev points out gravity totally dominates all the other forces, this is why neutron stars can exist. Free neutrons decay with a half life of 8 minutes, it is only because of the overwhelming force of gravity that they can exist indefinitely
If you aren't even prepared to try such an apparently simple thing, and if the observed average density of the Sun is waaay below that of solid iron, why waste anyone's time (including your own) on these wild ideas?For that matter, would you be prepared to show us all, using the Dr Manuel or Michael Mozina ideas, how the average density of the Sun could be what we observe it to be?
I can find plenty of information on neutron stars, I already have. Not a bit of it supports the idea of evaporating or fragmenting neutron stars. You're the one claiming that there's evidence that they can evaporate or fragment, so you're going to have to provide that evidence. I'm arguing on the other side, here.harry wrote:That is 100% correct, I'm not your slave. If you want more info on Neutron Stars look for it.
I think Qev you missunderstood. My intention. I do not have all the time in the world, and it is a very complicated subject. So if I can get some help along the way with some research.
harry,harry wrote:Hello Neried
I'm not working full time on this.
So my time is limited. But! in time I will.
Until than keep your comments respectful. Please do not try to verbal me into other words.
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As I see has been pointed out here, numerous times, the process of doing science (astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, and space science, in our case) is pretty unambiguous ... and in the confrontation between 'Sun has a solid iron surface' and some basic, easily verified observational data, the onus lies with those who propose such wild ideas as Mozina's to come up with good answers.This is a scientific forum
I have no idea what this means, in relation to 'evaporating neutron stars', so I look forward, with interest, to you providing an account of any such relationship.Qev I will come back on Neutron stars soon.
Mechanism
Option 1
a) The escape of neutrons from the NS, <1n> –> 1n + 10-22 MeV
b) The decay of free neutrons, 1n –> 1H+ + e- + nanti + 0.78 MeV
c) Fusion of hydrogen, 4 1H+ + 2 e- –> 4He++ + 2 n + 26.73 MeV
d) Some H+ reaches the surface and departs in the solar wind
[snip]
I will add more to this later.
None of these are even close to being energetic enough to eject individual neutrons from the surface, let alone large quantities of them. Not to mention:harry wrote:Qev I will come back on Neutron stars soon.
Mechanism
Option 1
a) The escape of neutrons from the NS, <1n> –> 1n + 10-22 MeV
b) The decay of free neutrons, 1n –> 1H+ + e- + nanti + 0.78 MeV
c) Fusion of hydrogen, 4 1H+ + 2 e- –> 4He++ + 2 n + 26.73 MeV
d) Some H+ reaches the surface and departs in the solar wind
Again I'll point out, these jets are not originating from the neutron star itself, but rather from the interaction of an accretion disk with magnetic fields above the neutron star surface. The neutron star itself is not evaporating.option 2
Jets created by the Neutron stars eject matter.
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2003/v ... tions.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041223.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960531.html
Neutron star collisions are estimated to occur roughly once per year within a 60 million light year radius around Earth. This is an increase from the previously estimated rate of one per ten years. Assuming they're perfectly efficient in converting all their mass into the smallest, and therefore most numerous, viable fragments (and this does not happen), and they're about the biggest neutron stars you can have, that's about 60 fragments per collision.
That's simply energy stored as angular momentum. It has no fuel, no means of spinning itself back up again. If its magnetic field is what's powering the Sun, it's converting spin into thermal energy at a phenomenal rate, and would quickly stop.Michael Mozina wrote:Sure, but nuetron stars do have strong magnetic fields and they spin. If it's spinning inside a metallic crust, induction is a possible energy source.
Actually, you're right; since it's supported by neutron degeneracy, a neutron star won't collapse past its own even horizon unless it gains mass.I don't think so. I think I "MECO" might form if it's large enough, but it's nowhere near that size.Even if some mysterious 'neutron emission' effect could occur, that would rob the core of energy, and it would simply collapse futher, eventually into a black hole.
It shows evidence of stratification and changes in the stratification within the Sun. Isn't it a bit of a leap to say this is evidence for a solid surface?I does show evidence of a crust however, and that would require a complete rework of a shell model to hope to find evidence of the core using heliosiesmology techniques.Solar helioseismography shows no evidence for a neutron star inside the Sun.
I've read they can be stable down to about 0.1 solar masses or thereabouts, in fact. But what mechanism exists that can cause a neutron star to lose significant mass?Actually the minimum size of a nuetron star is less than .6 solar masses, thought they require about 1.4 solar masses to first form. They can "shrink" quite a bit however without becoming unstable.
If the structure of stars required the separation of elements in this fashion, with the lightest elements comprising the surface, then why do we see different stars with differing spectral lines and elemental abundances? Wouldn't the heavier elements always sink deeper into the star to be masked by the lighter-element plasmas, making all stellar spectra similar?No, it wouldn't, especially if it was covered by various plasmas, with the lightest and hottest plasmas being the hydrogen and helium layers. The current spectrum *assumes* that there is no significant amount of mass separation, certainly not mass separated layers of plasma.
Hi Michael,Michael Mozina wrote:Well, since you "started" with me, you don't mind if I respond do you?Nereid wrote:Thanks for the welcome, Wadsworth!Wadsworth wrote:Welcome Nereid! Link away, sounds interesting.
Let's start with Michael Mozina:
That is simply false Nereid. I am right about the heat signature issue, though my approach was all wrong in that thread. It has little to with with BB principles, and everything to do with the emission of light, and scattering. LMSAL is absolutely incorrect about the heat signature of the image however.Now Michael's ideas are based almost entirely on published images from various sources, including TRACE. That he misunderstands even fairly basic things about these images is clear from this thread.
What "flaw" might that be? Observation?To the extent that Dr Manuel's ideas incorporate Michael Mozina's, they incorporate the same flawed logic and bad science.
Why would you focus there when that is not what I based my case upon in the first place? Why do you also ignore the other kinds of "spheres" that form in space that are not more dense in the center?Perhaps the easiest way to see that Michael's idea is wrong is to consider the observed density of the Sun.
http://pof.aip.org/pof/gallery/video/20 ... hflong.mov
But I never claimed the sun was "solid iron" in the first place!For the density of (solid) iron, you can either measure it yourself, or take someone else's word for it.
If I was trying to do that, I might understand your concern.Now the flaw with Michael's idea is that the estimated average density of the Sun, by the above method or others, is much smaller than the density of solid iron ... and the errors in the measurements and calculations are far too small to allow the difference to be explained away as just 'measurement error'.
Well, then the obvious solution is that the sun is not made of solid iron. I never proposed anything of the sort in the first place.So, either the Sun is not composed of solid iron, or Newton's F = Gm1m2/r^2 is very wrong, or .... Michael's idea is inconsistent with good observational and experimental results.
Thanks for this.Michael Mozina wrote:Our work has been published in the Journal Of Fusion Energy, and Yadernaya Fitzika.Nereid wrote:Hi Michael,
Has your idea been published in a peer-reviewed (astronomy or astrophysics) scientific journal?
If so, would you be kind enough to give us the reference(s)?
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/jofe1.pdf
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/jofe2.pdf
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/Plasm ... rFinal.pdf
I've now been involved in a total of five papers published papers.
http://arxiv.org/find/grp_q-bio,grp_cs, ... /0/all/0/1
Would you please present a determination of the average density of the Sun, based on your 'Sun has a rocky, calcium ferrite surface' idea?Michael Mozina wrote:Well, since you "started" with me, you don't mind if I respond do you?Nereid wrote:Thanks for the welcome, Wadsworth!Wadsworth wrote:Welcome Nereid! Link away, sounds interesting.
Let's start with Michael Mozina:
That is simply false Nereid. I am right about the heat signature issue, though my approach was all wrong in that thread. It has little to with with BB principles, and everything to do with the emission of light, and scattering. LMSAL is absolutely incorrect about the heat signature of the image however.Now Michael's ideas are based almost entirely on published images from various sources, including TRACE. That he misunderstands even fairly basic things about these images is clear from this thread.
What "flaw" might that be? Observation?To the extent that Dr Manuel's ideas incorporate Michael Mozina's, they incorporate the same flawed logic and bad science.
Why would you focus there when that is not what I based my case upon in the first place? Why do you also ignore the other kinds of "spheres" that form in space that are not more dense in the center?Perhaps the easiest way to see that Michael's idea is wrong is to consider the observed density of the Sun.
http://pof.aip.org/pof/gallery/video/20 ... hflong.mov
But I never claimed the sun was "solid iron" in the first place!For the density of (solid) iron, you can either measure it yourself, or take someone else's word for it.
If I was trying to do that, I might understand your concern.Now the flaw with Michael's idea is that the estimated average density of the Sun, by the above method or others, is much smaller than the density of solid iron ... and the errors in the measurements and calculations are far too small to allow the difference to be explained away as just 'measurement error'.
Well, then the obvious solution is that the sun is not made of solid iron. I never proposed anything of the sort in the first place.So, either the Sun is not composed of solid iron, or Newton's F = Gm1m2/r^2 is very wrong, or .... Michael's idea is inconsistent with good observational and experimental results.
Is there a 'neutron star' at the core of the Sun, in your idea?Michael Mozina wrote:The only "determination" I could reach is that the average density of the sun is as described. How that breaks down in the various layers isn't well understood at this time. There are obviously different plasma layers in the sun's outer atmosphere, and undoubtedly there are high temperature, mass separated plasma layers under the surface as well. The solid surface shell is relatively thin, and constitutes no more than 5%-7% of the total mass of the sun. While it is *mostly* iron (by weight), there are many other elements present. The surface crust is not homogeneous either, and some areas may be more the average density of something like Olivine rather than pure iron.Nereid wrote:Would you please present a determination of the average density of the Sun, based on your 'Sun has a rocky, calcium ferrite surface' idea?
I can't find any such determination on your website, nor in any of the five papers you cite (in a later post).
Try looking up solar-acoustic resonance or imaging, the Suns density stratifications are more "well understood" than you may think.The only "determination" I could reach is that the average density of the sun is as described. How that breaks down in the various layers isn't well understood at this time.