APOD: Space Shuttle and Space Station... (2011 Jun 08)

[EArHog]

Thanks, Art. You made my point much better than I could. Nothing particularly useful comes to us from ISS, if your description is representative (and I think it is). Putting people in space to so we can learn how to keep people in space is a pretty silly excuse, especially compared to the actual useful results that we get from HST and Cassini. Manned space flight is, in my opinion, intended for the amusement of wannabe cowboys and rock 'em sock 'em nationalists, and it's a luxury this planet cannot afford. Maybe it'll be a different story after fusion is perfected and we've gotten our population growth under control. I'm a proponent of learning for the sake of knowing, and against adventure for adventure's sake. Build super colliders. Catch neutrinos. Send probes to the moons of Saturn and Jupiter. Golly, the list of better ways to spend that ISS money is almost endless.

That photo of the astronaut's hair floating around is a fantastic illustration of my point about the silliness of the ISS. It's the new poster for my campaign. Thank you.

[neufer]

Thanks, Art. You made my point much better than I could. Nothing particularly useful comes to us from ISS, if your description is representative (and I think it is). Putting people in space to so we can learn how to keep people in space is a pretty silly excuse, especially compared to the actual useful results that we get from HST and Cassini.

The space-conceived cockroaches seem to do quite well, however.

Perhaps we should try to colonize Mars with cockroaches.

[kshiarella]

Our need to explore seems well served by unmanned probes. We will almost certainly never leave the Solar System. With enough time, we may find reasons to send people to other places withing the Solar System... but that time is not now, and I don't see much evidence that people are desperately seeking out new frontiers to physically explore.

My goodness, how disappointing it is to read this. It brings to mind a movie quote from Sam Neil in the last Jurassic Park movie. He says WTTE, "There are two kinds of boys in the world, Astronomers and Astronauts. The Astronomer likes to stay home and observer and measure from home but the Astronaut needs to see with his own eyes and touch with his own hands." I believe your point of view is political because it reflects the polarization in attitude between the Astronomer type and the Astronaut type. Whereas, I believe we need both. And I hate to see one side devalue the other.

As for those desperately seeking to explore, you are seeing it every single day! Those risking their lives to climb cliffs by their finger tips, sky diving, surfing huge waves, cave diving, X-treme sports, climbing mountains, the "Survivor" TV shows, the kid who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge on a dare. This is what is left to the pioneer spirit when it is grounded. These are our pioneers, our astronauts who have nothing to do. It is there, trust me. Those willing to take the risks are not the limitation. It is the leadership that unites the risk-takers behind an effort (besides chasing AK-47 & RPG toting fundamentalists around Middle-East deserts) to chase a dream.

And there are resources in our solar system. Great Caches of resources that we only have to learn to reach that would relieve stress on our little blue ball. Humans can't change their nature. Women will hunger to make tons of babies and men will line up to oblige them. We either learn to move out to use the empty space or we trash this place.

As for never (NEVER) leaving the solar system, such a pessimistic view! We know pretty much everything there is to be known? If we don't leave we are a dead end. Hard for me to accept that man can imagine a greater purpose for himself but actually have none whatsoever. Well, if life in our solar system is as finite as the solar system and we are indeed just a futile fleeting flicker in the great scheme of things then count me as one who would like to go down trying and reaching.

I can see that for some, the images on APOD inspire such dreams and for others they simply document how finite and hopeless humanity actually is. I'm glad I'm in the camp I'm in.

[neufer]

Our need to explore seems well served by unmanned probes. We will almost certainly never leave the Solar System. With enough time, we may find reasons to send people to other places withing the Solar System... but that time is not now, and I don't see much evidence that people are desperately seeking out new frontiers to physically explore.

My goodness, how disappointing it is to read this. It brings to mind a movie quote from Sam Neil in the last Jurassic Park movie. He says WTTE, "There are two kinds of boys in the world, Astronomers and Astronauts. The Astronomer likes to stay home and observer and measure from home but the Astronaut needs to see with his own eyes and touch with his own hands."

<<In the third [Omen] film The Final Conflict, Damien Thorn (Sam Neill) is appointed Ambassador to the Court of St. James's, the same position his adoptive father held in the first film. Unlike the two incarnations of Damien portrayed in previous Omen films, the adult Damien is entirely aware of his unholy lineage, and his destiny. An alignment of the stars in the Cassiopeia region of the night sky (the traditional location of the stellar signal of the Second Coming) causes the creation of a super "star", described in the film as a second Star of Bethlehem. Damien realizes it is a sign of the Second Coming of Christ and he orders all male children in England born on the morning of March 24, (the morning when, in the story, the Cassiopeia alignment occurred) to be killed in order to prevent the Christ-child's return to power, as predicted in the Book of Revelation.>>

• Master Sergeant Neff: Mathematics good, Science very good, Military History fair, room for improvement.
  
  Damien Thorn: Yes Sergeant.
  
  Master Sergeant Neff: Physical Training is excellent. I hear you're quite a Football player. Be proud of your accomplishments. Pride is alright when there's reason to be proud.
  
  Damien Thorn: Yes Sergeant.
  
  Master Sergeant Neff: I'm here to teach you but also I'm here to help you. Any problems you come to me. Don't be afraid, day or night, any advice. You understand?
  
  Damien Thorn: Whatever you say Sergeant.
  
  Master Sergeant Neff: We're gonna get to know each other. I see you're an orphan. Well, that's something we have in common.

[NoelC]

We either learn to move out to use the empty space or we trash this place.

Well, that's a depressing point of view all in its own right.

Not all humans who have inhabited this planet expand and trash everything. Some lived (and live) in harmony with nature.

Make no mistake, nature is preparing to fight back against the hordes. We live in a tiny little bubble in time where our antibiotics still work and we can still find stuff laying around to burn.

-Noel

[rstevenson]

Make no mistake, nature is preparing to fight back against the hordes. We live in a tiny little bubble in time where our antibiotics still work and we can still find stuff laying around to burn.

Exactly! And we also are in a tiny little bubble of time where resources are easy to extract. Imagine if we put off doing the hard things because our equations of scientific worth versus dollars (as if that were the only valid criteria) tell us to not go there in person. Imagine we put it off so long that we don't have the resources to do it at all. Imagine we realize all this too late and have to sit here in our stew and watch ourselves dwindle away to a depressed bedraggled few. That is the end that awaits those who have no heart for the venture, who insist that the human spirit can't be put into their equations of relative worth, who diminish the efforts of us all with their unimaginative accounting.

Dreamers should drive us forward without regard for the naysaying of the scientist accountants who deny the worth of human minds, eyes and hands on the ground in the field.

(And if you want to know what I really think... .)

Rob

[Chris Peterson]

My goodness, how disappointing it is to read this. It brings to mind a movie quote from Sam Neil in the last Jurassic Park movie. He says WTTE, "There are two kinds of boys in the world, Astronomers and Astronauts. The Astronomer likes to stay home and observer and measure from home but the Astronaut needs to see with his own eyes and touch with his own hands."

Well, pithy statements like that are the bread and butter of screenwriters.There isn't necessarily any great truth to them, though.

I believe your point of view is political because it reflects the polarization in attitude between the Astronomer type and the Astronaut type. Whereas, I believe we need both. And I hate to see one side devalue the other.

I think it's an artificial distinction, in that other than actual astronomers and actual astronauts, who together represent the tiniest fraction of humanity, there's not such a thing as an "astronomer type" or "astronaut type". You seem to be awfully sensitive about the matter- a rational discussion of risks versus benefits and optimal use of limited resources hardly strikes me as "devaluing" anyone!

As for those desperately seeking to explore, you are seeing it every single day!

I believe you romanticize exploration. I think it is much less a human trait than you make it. There are indeed those who live to explore, but they are, and always have been, a tiny minority. The vast majority of humans are quite happy not being explorers themselves, and whatever interest they have in the matter is satisfied by a subscription to National Geographic and a daily glance at APOD. For the most part, societies have only provided direct support to explorers when they saw some tangible value in doing so. Otherwise, most explorers found their own resources and supporters- privately. And most of those who really made discoveries that changed our lives were in it for the money more than some intrinsic need to explore.

And there are resources in our solar system. Great Caches of resources that we only have to learn to reach that would relieve stress on our little blue ball. Humans can't change their nature. Women will hunger to make tons of babies and men will line up to oblige them. We either learn to move out to use the empty space or we trash this place.

There are resources in space, and by far the best way to exploit them is with unmanned approaches. And our drive to reproduce may well be our downfall, but there's no solution to that problem to be found elsewhere in the Solar System, and it is science fiction to imagine we'll leave the Solar System. Well, maybe in thousands of years, if we are able to maintain civilization. But I have my doubts about that. We are very rapidly stressing our planet to the point that our civilizations are likely to fall. That's something we could see in less than a century. We certainly will be in no position to have colonies on other planets by then. But a rich understanding of planetary processes, observed for the Earth and other planets (which is really only practical with unmanned probes) is one of the few things that actually stands to provide us with the information we need to save ourselves from ourselves. Still a long shot, but manned space exploration at this point provides no shot at all.

[kshiarella]

My goodness, how disappointing it is to read this. It brings to mind a movie quote from Sam Neil in the last Jurassic Park movie. He says WTTE, "There are two kinds of boys in the world, Astronomers and Astronauts. The Astronomer likes to stay home and observer and measure from home but the Astronaut needs to see with his own eyes and touch with his own hands."

Well, pithy statements like that are the bread and butter of screenwriters.There isn't necessarily any great truth to them, though.

I believe your point of view is political because it reflects the polarization in attitude between the Astronomer type and the Astronaut type. Whereas, I believe we need both. And I hate to see one side devalue the other.

I think it's an artificial distinction, in that other than actual astronomers and actual astronauts, who together represent the tiniest fraction of humanity, there's not such a thing as an "astronomer type" or "astronaut type". You seem to be awfully sensitive about the matter- a rational discussion of risks versus benefits and optimal use of limited resources hardly strikes me as "devaluing" anyone!

As for those desperately seeking to explore, you are seeing it every single day!

I believe you romanticize exploration. I think it is much less a human trait than you make it. There are indeed those who live to explore, but they are, and always have been, a tiny minority. The vast majority of humans are quite happy not being explorers themselves, and whatever interest they have in the matter is satisfied by a subscription to National Geographic and a daily glance at APOD. For the most part, societies have only provided direct support to explorers when they saw some tangible value in doing so. Otherwise, most explorers found their own resources and supporters- privately. And most of those who really made discoveries that changed our lives were in it for the money more than some intrinsic need to explore.

And there are resources in our solar system. Great Caches of resources that we only have to learn to reach that would relieve stress on our little blue ball. Humans can't change their nature. Women will hunger to make tons of babies and men will line up to oblige them. We either learn to move out to use the empty space or we trash this place.

There are resources in space, and by far the best way to exploit them is with unmanned approaches. And our drive to reproduce may well be our downfall, but there's no solution to that problem to be found elsewhere in the Solar System, and it is science fiction to imagine we'll leave the Solar System. Well, maybe in thousands of years, if we are able to maintain civilization. But I have my doubts about that. We are very rapidly stressing our planet to the point that our civilizations are likely to fall. That's something we could see in less than a century. We certainly will be in no position to have colonies on other planets by then. But a rich understanding of planetary processes, observed for the Earth and other planets (which is really only practical with unmanned probes) is one of the few things that actually stands to provide us with the information we need to save ourselves from ourselves. Still a long shot, but manned space exploration at this point provides no shot at all.

A classic example of what happens when a strong left brain thinker tries to communicate with a strong right brain thinker (and no, that is not an artificial distinction either).... sheesh!

[kshiarella]

Our need to explore seems well served by unmanned probes. We will almost certainly never leave the Solar System. With enough time, we may find reasons to send people to other places withing the Solar System... but that time is not now, and I don't see much evidence that people are desperately seeking out new frontiers to physically explore.

My goodness, how disappointing it is to read this. It brings to mind a movie quote from Sam Neil in the last Jurassic Park movie. He says WTTE, "There are two kinds of boys in the world, Astronomers and Astronauts. The Astronomer likes to stay home and observer and measure from home but the Astronaut needs to see with his own eyes and touch with his own hands."

<<In the third [Omen] film The Final Conflict, Damien Thorn (Sam Neill) is appointed Ambassador to the Court of St. James's, the same position his adoptive father held in the first film. Unlike the two incarnations of Damien portrayed in previous Omen films, the adult Damien is entirely aware of his unholy lineage, and his destiny. An alignment of the stars in the Cassiopeia region of the night sky (the traditional location of the stellar signal of the Second Coming) causes the creation of a super "star", described in the film as a second Star of Bethlehem. Damien realizes it is a sign of the Second Coming of Christ and he orders all male children in England born on the morning of March 24, (the morning when, in the story, the Cassiopeia alignment occurred) to be killed in order to prevent the Christ-child's return to power, as predicted in the Book of Revelation.>>

• Master Sergeant Neff: Mathematics good, Science very good, Military History fair, room for improvement.
  
  Damien Thorn: Yes Sergeant.
  
  Master Sergeant Neff: Physical Training is excellent. I hear you're quite a Football player. Be proud of your accomplishments. Pride is alright when there's reason to be proud.
  
  Damien Thorn: Yes Sergeant.
  
  Master Sergeant Neff: I'm here to teach you but also I'm here to help you. Any problems you come to me. Don't be afraid, day or night, any advice. You understand?
  
  Damien Thorn: Whatever you say Sergeant.
  
  Master Sergeant Neff: We're gonna get to know each other. I see you're an orphan. Well, that's something we have in common.

I see what you did there.

Source aside and in the face of obtuse derision, the point remains. Neil Armstrong and Murray Gell-Mann were probably different kinds of boys (but I bet Enrico Fermi would have made a heckuva astronaut). Not all of our dreams of achievement are the same nor are the same pursuits equally fulfilling for all of us. The frustrated pioneers are still around (just not on this board). Even though it comes from an infrequent poster, the idea is probably not all that contentious.

[kshiarella]

We either learn to move out to use the empty space or we trash this place.

Well, that's a depressing point of view all in its own right.

I suppose, but at least my future world view has a way out because in my view humanity is not mandated to be scorched into an ion cloud by an expanding sun in a few billion years. I think I'm unreasonably optimistic to be thinking we could be around that long!

Not all humans who have inhabited this planet expand and trash everything. Some lived (and live) in harmony with nature.

true, but they are displaced and mowed over by the imperialistic cultures that are founded on the model of survival through expansion and growth. Then all is left are those cultures. I think we have a better chance of leaving the solar system riding a Unicorn than going back and living like native Americans in balance with nature. And if we did, all these unmanned and manned missions wouldn't survive anyway because it takes HUGE economies to support these kinds of technologies. No more Hubble or Cassini photographs...could we survive without them?

Make no mistake, nature is preparing to fight back against the hordes. We live in a tiny little bubble in time where our antibiotics still work and we can still find stuff laying around to burn.

I make tons of mistakes, but the real rub here is that we as a species have gotten good at dodging and manipulating the Good Mother's attempts to keep us in check. Thus far. If she has something new for us that we can't handle, I hope that both you and I (but definitely not Chris) escape being among the "hordes."

[owlice]

Kids today though only know the Mars Rovers, Cassini, cometary missions and the end of the Shuttle era.

Only some kids, and I'd bet by percentage, far fewer of them than knew of the Gemini, Mercury, and Apollo missions. If my 17-year-old knows Cassini, I'll be surprised. (I'll ask him this evening whether he does.) I doubt he knows any cometary mission, and he probably doesn't know the last Shuttle will be launching soon. And he spent two years in a science and tech high school program! (Left early to attend college, which is why he was there only two years.) Hmmm... I wonder how many of the teachers in that school know of these missions. That might make a splendid study.

Well, I finally got around to asking my kid if he knew what the Cassini mission is for, and he got a quizzical look on his face and said, "Uhhhhh, Saturn?" Surprised me! I asked if he knew what the MESSENGER mission was; he did not, and after I told him, he was annoyed with himself for not figuring it out from the name of the mission/its planet. He knew the Mars Rovers, did not know of any comet missions. I did not ask him about the shuttles, but only because I didn't remember to do so.