Starship Asterisk*

Yes, Sorry John, but just because you say it's so doesn't mean it's so.

You had no reply to my steam theory.

Anyway .. I'm convinced the grooves are from ice mining ..
the preponderence of groove through the obvious ice area simply reinforces my belief.

Sput,
This is getting fun!
You set them up - I knock 'em down!

Perspective:
If you look at other pics of Phobos, you will see what I mean. There is one easily accessible on the Wikipedia entry for Phobos, taken by Viking-1 (yes, that long ago!) at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phobos-viking1.jpg
This was taken from a position about 90 degrees around Stickney, looking along, rather than over, the light coloured part of the rim. Use the small newer crater inside Stick to orientate yourself. It shows rather clearly that the lines/grooves/motorways-for-gnomes curve over the rim in a straight line.

It also shows rather clearly something else, the crater chain just to the right of the light terminator line. Going away from Stickney, two chains converge at a larger crater. One continues a short distance and ends at a smaller one. The other extends almost halfway across Phobos. This demonstrates two things:
1/ That the 'grooving' ocurred at different times, I think the short one was later, as it overlies the longer one.
2/ That the different grooving events occured at different angles.

This evidence - not just my say so, Sput, but evidence - fits better with a crater chaining theory than with ice mining. Moreover, this long chain is rather obviously just that, a crater chain and not the result of a massive back-hoe project in space.

JOhn

Yes John, this is interesting . . vexing . I won't say fun because your refusal to even mention the steam theory deminishes my ability to appreciate your personality, which I have great respect for. However .. I will be forgiving. Yes . . the straight lines do approach the lip of Stickney . . however, in your referenced photo the side of the lip in which the lines curve towards each other is in darkness .. nothing can be seen.

Please John - steam vent explosions can explain the craters far, far more easily than thousands of pieces of returning debris all the same size and somehow set in order to create wonderful straight lines (and lines which also change direction). Nice to hear from you though .. hope you're enjoying springtime .. I saw Crocusses flowering today, and this is Canada, eh!

Sputnick wrote:Please John - steam vent explosions can explain the craters far, far more easily than thousands of pieces of returning debris all the same size and somehow set in order to create wonderful straight lines

Sput,
Google for pictures about Shoemaker-Leyy 9, the comet that broke up into a line of at least 20 pieces of debris (that we could see - there were probably thousands) and crashed into Jupiter. That type of event is so common that we have seen it during the present decade, and there were several epochs of much more intense bombardment of all the planets in the distant past - see the Moon, Mercury, Mars, the solid satellites of Jupiter and Saturn, all complete with crater chains.
Now, compare that with evidence of steam vents. Show and tell!

John

"Pity the unfortunate slave chained to his theory." Sputnick, April, 2008

John:1 - (not to be confused with John 1: 1 to 3 - or John 3:16) -
the 20 pieces you refered to were different sizes whereas the
Phobos impacts would have to be from identical size rocks .. tens
of thousands of identical sized impacts.
2 - this one little Phobos moon is the only example of multitudes of
grooves which one theory claims as impact craters.
3 - I have seen nowhere on Mars or on earth's moon similar
grooves .. but if they were available they could have origins
other than crater impacts.
4 - explain how the straight lines change direction radically and
obviously - especially the parallel lines coming in from the top
right quarter of the original photo under discussion.
5 - supporting evidence for steam vents. I'm sure such examples
are found on earth, but I can't name any.

By the way .. I've originated a discussion about time and light - how they might affect each other. I'll try to get the url for you.

Do you play 5 pin or 10 pin? (a clonclusion I've drawn from your 'set
them up - knock them
down' comment.

In so far as steam vents being one possible cause, there is at least 1 comparitive set of steam vent cracks that could be compared and that is Enceladus' "Tiger Stripes".
Lets not forget Titan which has striping too in what is presumed to be sand dunes. I wonder if the smog is ET's polution?
As for Iapetus, that ridge is obviously where the two halves were married up before the space station was sealed up for good and abandoned to permanent Saturnian orbit.
And obviously the work of ET's "thats no moon...It's a space station"

Point is, there are no 2 moons or planets that are alike in our solar system so everything is unique and uniqueness doesn't necessarily imply intelligent design

I agree with BMA that there are different mechanisms to acount for the different features of the widely differing satellites that we have seen. He (?) invites us to compare the venting seen on Enceladus with the markings on Phobos, so let's do that.
Enceladus: Sinuous markings with evidence of expelled material on the surface and in space around the moon. No sign of craters, the markings appear to be smooth sided lines, but the resolution in the pictures received may have smoothed out any irregularieties.
Phobos: Straight lines, that include obvious craters, but beyond resolution appear as smooth sided lines. Some evidence of material on surface associated with craters, but not with craters that are part of a line.
So the two features appear distinctly different, and not caused by the same mechanism.

Further, on Earth we associate craters with material expelled from within the planet. This is because terrestrial volcanos expel heavy rock, that falls again close by, building a cone that is intermittently decapitated by an eruption, forming a crater. Terrestrial eruptions that do not expel rock - geysers - do not form a crater. If this mechanism is similar to extraterrestrial steam vents, how do they form craters?

To answer Sputnik's points:
1/ There has been intense effort to estimate the size of the S-L9 fragments, and one is from 100m to 4 kilometers:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m06700562863x112/ The variability in the size of the pieces when a body is tidally fragemented is extreme, and dependent on the material, the gravity well it passes through and the proximity to the primary. If this was ejected Mars material, why shouldn't it break down into sand or pebbles?

2/ Unique Phobos. See BMA's comment on how different are ALL the moons we have seen! The Universe is not a one-horse race, but it is a one-physics race.

3/ No grooves elsewhere. I have pointed to crater chains on several other moons before. Look also at pictures of Dione and Rhea, that have clear lines on thier surfaces, that are beyond the resolution to show up craters.
I have pointed these out before on The Asterisk: http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 18bef4505f
That thread included contributions from the notorious "craterchains" who is another holder of an alternative theory, to wit that ancient space war accounts for such markings.
Again, unique Phobos, see BMAs comments. But Earth has tectonics, that are belived to have smoothed old features elsewhere in the solar system, and bioth Earth and mars have weather, to further erode and change old markings. Plenty of grooves elsewhere, see above.

4/ The lines cross; do I have to explain how impacting objects can come from different directions? That they appear to curve is an artefact of perspective and of a line of impactors falling on a non-flat surface. Lines of longitude on a globe appear curved.
I don't see any lines coming in from top right. But you might like to look at another HiRise image of Phobos, taken on the same approach, I think, but later. The moon has rotated slightly, so that shadowing shows up the crater chain at top right rather better. The wide range of crater size in this chain becomes obvious.
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/images/20 ... 15_IRB.jpg (NB, this is a very large file)

5/ If you can't find supporting evidence, then you can't uphold your theory. But full marks for following scientific method for once.

John

Congratulations John and thank you for attempting to explain why you believe what you believe.

However .. steam venting on Phobos would probably create craters because there is no atmospheric pressure to prevent the steam exploding when it reached the surface. Steam in Phobo's interior would be kept from exploding by the surrounding pressure of the rock and ice. On earth within large volcanic craters we see small craters which appear to be from the effect of the (sometimes superheated steam and or magma?) exploding when it reached the loose surface and greatly lowered pressure of the walls of the large crater.

The large resolution photo you provided by reference seems to confirm my geological theory because it reveals multitides more grooves, countless, smaller, seemingly without craters, parallel with each other, exactly like sedimentary features on earth. Why would they appear as grooves? Perhaps Phobos was once part of a planet which had atmosphere .. windblown sand could scour the layers like wind raising waves on ocean or lake .. or, I have seen 'waves' of sand created in shallow waters by the waves of the water (Canada's Great Lake Huron's famous shallow beaches being prime examples).

An excellent example of volcanic steam vent craters on earth. http://debris.com/galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=626
These two craters creating a groove.

One small example of a steam vent crater on earth - bottom left of this photo.

http://www.rcn.montana.edu/library/enla ... 7&size=800

The important thing to remember in all of this is not that we are right or wrong .. it's obvious we prefer our theories because we are presenting them .. but exchanging ideas should be educational, entertaining, thought provoking, leading us to a higher humanity, for which we should be grateful.

Sputnick wrote:However .. steam venting on Phobos would probably create craters because there is no atmospheric pressure to prevent the steam exploding when it reached the surface.

And what has kept the steam from expanding before it reaches the surface. A terrestrial geyser heats a column of water to a point where the vapour pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure plus the height of the water column. When that is exceeded, the water vapourises and pushes the water above out of the column. less water in column - more can vapourise and a jet of steam and water comes out, until the water column container is empty. The process repeats.
On Phobos, the lack of atmospheric pressure and the low gravity would boil any water at a very low temperature. The resulting geysir would be more like a Mintoe fountain than something to gouge out a crater hundreds of meters wide.

Have a look at the Old Faithful GeyserCam at: http://www.nps.gov/archive/yell/OldFaithfulcam.htm
Or at Steamboat Geyser, the highest in the world at present:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~boris/photo/t ... _ng09.html
No craters!

However, some of the biggest explosions on earth have involved water and lava. Mt.St.Helens, the volcanic eruption that silenced Waimangu Geyser, maybe Krakatoa. But those require a lot of lava and a lot of water, plentiful on Earth. Pretty scarce on Phobos now.

If it was a thrown off piece of Mars, complete with sedimentary rock that included lots of water - it's sedimentary! Where does the lava, or at least heat come from?
And if it was sedimentary, I would expect the lines of eruption of warmed water to follow the strata. How in Geology do strata cross over, as you have pointed out?

This is fun; picture 5, an ice tower over a steam vent on Mt.Erebus, Antarctica.
http://tea.armadaproject.org/deaton/12.28.2004.html

The large resolution photo you provided by reference seems to confirm my geological theory because it reveals multitides more grooves, countless, smaller, seemingly without craters, parallel with each other, exactly like sedimentary features on earth. Why would they appear as grooves?

Well, different eyes see different things. As I follow any 'groove' I see wavy sides, as if the groove is a concatentation of a series of craters. As the groove gets fainter that wavyness diminishes until the groove appears smooth sided. Which I take to be the limit of resolution, not a sudden change to a different mechanism of formation.

Perhaps Phobos was once part of a planet which had atmosphere .. windblown sand could scour the layers like wind raising waves on ocean or lake .. or, I have seen 'waves' of sand created in shallow waters by the waves of the water (Canada's Great Lake Huron's famous shallow beaches being prime examples).

If you can show us a formation like Phobos ona lake floor, fine.

The important thing to remember in all of this is not that we are right or wrong .. it's obvious we prefer our theories because we are presenting them .. but exchanging ideas should be educational, entertaining, thought provoking, leading us to a higher humanity, for which we should be grateful.

The important thing is to argue from evidence, not from fancy. You have not, I think, propsed a single item of evidence to support your theories, but expressed them as opinion.
For instance and thtis thread. Quote Sputnick:
"I'm genuinely thinking the grooves are due to last ditch attempts at saving the Martian civilization by mining Phobos "
" Could this rock be travelling by rolling .. pushed by small centrifugul forces as the moon slowly wobbles .. if the moon slowly wobbles?"
"I'm wildly open-minded enough about mankind's infinitesimal knowledge of lifeforms to believe possible (only a theory of course) that the 'rock' in the groove is a silicon creature and the organic material is its excrement .. possibly the creature is eating its way across the surface of the moon creating the groove."
And finally, "I can substantiate almost nothing of which I speak .. but that's not important to me "
It is important to other people who speak of what you know, or what you have evidence for. I can't refute the existence of an invisible elf, or of a theory that has no evidence. But I am duty bound to do so when there is evidence against that theory.

John

An excellent example of volcanic steam vent craters on earth. http://debris.com/galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=626
These two craters creating a groove.

One small example of a steam vent crater on earth - bottom left of this photo.

Another example of a steam vent crater on earth.http://www.bighorngalleries.com/black_growler.htm

http://www.rcn.montana.edu/library/enla ... 7&size=800

John - this is now a profitable discussion; and I will answer your questions and statements in order that you make them .. but I would like to say that all your questions were answered in my last post. It is common, I think, because of time constraints, for forum participants to scan instead of reading.

JohnD wrote:

Sputnick wrote:However .. steam venting on Phobos would probably create craters because there is no atmospheric pressure to prevent the steam exploding when it reached the surface.

And what has kept the steam from expanding before it reaches the surface.

Answer: Pressure within Phobos - pressure of rock and ice.

A terrestrial geyser heats a column of water to a point where the vapour pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure plus the height of the water column. When that is exceeded, the water vapourises and pushes the water above out of the column. less water in column - more can vapourise and a jet of steam and water comes out, until the water column container is empty. The process repeats.

Answer: Tidal gravity could be immense, creating eough pressure to heat both ice and rock to liquid at high temperatures - or a least ice to superheated steam. Of Mintoes fountains I have no knowledge.

On Phobos, the lack of atmospheric pressure and the low gravity would boil any water at a very low temperature. The resulting geysir would be more like a Mintoe fountain than something to gouge out a crater hundreds of meters wide.

Answer: Not much pressure is needed to blast out a large crater in volcanic ash .. the surfae of Phobos appears to consist of loosely pack, perhaps granular material.



Have a look at the Old Faithful GeyserCam at: http://www.nps.gov/archive/yell/OldFaithfulcam.htm
Or at Steamboat Geyser, the highest in the world at present:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~boris/photo/t ... _ng09.html
No craters!

Answer: Did you examine the two examples I provided?

However, some of the biggest explosions on earth have involved water and lava. Mt.St.Helens, the volcanic eruption that silenced Waimangu Geyser, maybe Krakatoa. But those require a lot of lava and a lot of water, plentiful on Earth. Pretty scarce on Phobos now.

Answer: In one of these posts I read Phobos is half ice and half rock. Not much temperature change is needed to change ice to water.

If it was a thrown off piece of Mars, complete with sedimentary rock that included lots of water - it's sedimentary! Where does the lava, or at least heat come from?

Answer: Tidal gravity forcing the layers together.

And if it was sedimentary, I would expect the lines of eruption of warmed water to follow the strata. How in Geology do strata cross over, as you have pointed out?

Answer: I have lived and travelled often in our Canadian Shield. I have seen strata crisscross, and I have seen U shaped strata. Rock is very flexible. A short length of steel seems inflexible - however, I have helped lay 1/4 mile lengths of railroad track weighing 120 lbs. per foot (or was that 160 lbs? I think 160 lbs., but it was 25 years ago)and know they are more like a rubber band, relatively, which their names reflect, "Ribbon Rail".

This is fun; picture 5, an ice tower over a steam vent on Mt.Erebus, Antarctica.
http://tea.armadaproject.org/deaton/12.28.2004.html

The large resolution photo you provided by reference seems to confirm my geological theory because it reveals multitides more grooves, countless, smaller, seemingly without craters, parallel with each other, exactly like sedimentary features on earth. Why would they appear as grooves?

Answer: Erosion by wind or water WHEN Phobos was part of a planet - I don't think Phobs is from Mars. The soft layers would erode in gullies, grooves.

Well, different eyes see different things. As I follow any 'groove' I see wavy sides, as if the groove is a concatentation of a series of craters. As the groove gets fainter that wavyness diminishes until the groove appears smooth sided. Which I take to be the limit of resolution, not a sudden change to a different mechanism of formation.

Answer: If you examine the photos I referenced you would see two steam created craters in soft material, with a groove between the two craters .. the groove and craters together making a longer groove, exactly as on Phobs, with wavy lines.

Perhaps Phobos was once part of a planet which had atmosphere .. windblown sand could scour the layers like wind raising waves on ocean or lake .. or, I have seen 'waves' of sand created in shallow waters by the waves of the water (Canada's Great Lake Huron's famous shallow beaches being prime examples).

If you can show us a formation like Phobos ona lake floor, fine.

Answer: Visit Pinery Provincial Park on Lake Huron and see it in miniature .. but without craters. A trip to the Canadian Shield would be a real education as to rock formation.

The important thing to remember in all of this is not that we are right or wrong .. it's obvious we prefer our theories because we are presenting them .. but exchanging ideas should be educational, entertaining, thought provoking, leading us to a higher humanity, for which we should be grateful.

The important thing is to argue from evidence, not from fancy. You have not, I think, propsed a single item of evidence to support your theories, but expressed them as opinion.
For instance and thtis thread. Quote Sputnick:
"I'm genuinely thinking the grooves are due to last ditch attempts at saving the Martian civilization by mining Phobos "
" Could this rock be travelling by rolling .. pushed by small centrifugul forces as the moon slowly wobbles .. if the moon slowly wobbles?"
"I'm wildly open-minded enough about mankind's infinitesimal knowledge of lifeforms to believe possible (only a theory of course) that the 'rock' in the groove is a silicon creature and the organic material is its excrement .. possibly the creature is eating its way across the surface of the moon creating the groove."
And finally, "I can substantiate almost nothing of which I speak .. but that's not important to me "
It is important to other people who speak of what you know, or what you have evidence for. I can't refute the existence of an invisible elf, or of a theory that has no evidence. But I am duty bound to do so when there is evidence against that theory.

Answer: I have now substantiated my steam vent theory with photographic evidence included by my url references .. if you do not want to take time to examine that evidence, that is not to your promotion. Equally importantly, you argue (in a god way generally) only considering astronomical events without consideration of the other sciences. This also is not to your bennefit. My interests lay in all the sciences, giving me a wider view of possibilities. If you read my posts carefully, a good example being my posts on Gas Creatures) you will see that I take evidence from one science (Bacteriophages .. self grouping of molecules) to support my imagination. Do you not see possible that a person with imagination looked at lightning and imagined the possibility of that energy being harnessed? Benjamin Franklin was probably called a lunatic by some people. Lacking in formal education, I observe the natural world and universe, and also read magazines and books like Scientific American. That I cannot understand the mathematics of physics I don't think hinders me from conceiving what could be immense realities undreamed of by some people with formal education who have not observed the natural world at close quarters (living in it) and who have discarded imagination as an unproductive tool. A simple example - a child wanting to go to the moon and jumping as high as he or she can go. Then next using a springboard. Then imagining a machine. Then building a machine. Finally - a grown child (an adult) harvesting the work and imagination of generations of children and adults - gets to ther moon.

I have emailed my friend Don, a Professor Emeritus in Geology who has an avid desire to stand on Mars for scientific and personal purposes, and requested his opinion of the photos of Phobos.

This discussion, John, is a wonderful exercise in communication. Thanks for being part of it - we will have to forgive each others' sense of superiority to gain fully from it.

An excellent example of volcanic steam vent craters on earth. http://debris.com/galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=626
These two craters creating a groove.

One small example of a steam vent crater on earth - bottom left of this photo.

http://www.rcn.montana.edu/library/enla ... 7&size=800

Photo of Steam Vent groove on Mars -

John - this one exactly matches my theory! My goodness - I was right afer all!

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007 ... races.html

Unfortunately, they are refering to the white sand being deposited by steam means, the groove came later being dug out by the rovers ailing wheel assembly as it was dragged along

BMA You are a danged hindrance to my self-assurance! I wish these photos would include a scale of some kind, or I would read the captions more closely - I thought this was a photo from the orbiter. Thanks for the information. I still believe I'm right .. but being right can cause headaches if you're wrong .. so until more photos are in, closer photos, geologists standing on phobos, whatever .. we won't know for sure .. but the urls I provided sure show earthly examples of my proposal.

Sputnick: Apr. 21, 2008 4:38 pm wrote:"Pity the unfortunate slave chained to his theory." Sputnick, April, 2008

http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... ght=#92971

Sputnick wrote:An excellent example of volcanic steam vent craters on earth. http://debris.com/galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=626
These two craters creating a groove.

You have that point, Sputnik!
A tad small, but let it go.

Sputnick wrote: And what has kept the steam from expanding before it reaches the surface.
Answer: Pressure within Phobos - pressure of rock and ice.

How has the rock & ice exerted that pressure? The gravity on the surface of Phobos varies due to its irregular shape, but is never more than 0.09g. So there is very little weight, presing the surfeca down on the core.

Sputnick wrote: Answer: Tidal gravity could be immense, creating eough pressure to heat both ice and rock to liquid at high temperatures - or a least ice to superheated steam. Of Mintoes fountains I have no knowledge.

Not so. The gravity well of a primary tends to pull a satellite apart, not squeeze it together. A moon big enough to be held togther by its own gravity will be stressed by the tide, this is one theory for the presence of
liquid water on Enceladus. But a gas giants gravity is needed, esl;e the Moon would have active volcanos.


.

Sputnick wrote:Answer: Not much pressure is needed to blast out a large crater in volcanic ash .. the surfae of Phobos appears to consist of loosely pack, perhaps granular material.

Who knows, I don't!

Have a look at the Old Faithful GeyserCam at: http://www.nps.gov/archive/yell/OldFaithfulcam.htm
Or at Steamboat Geyser, the highest in the world at present:
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~boris/photo/t ... _ng09.html
No craters!
Answer: Did you examine the two examples I provided?.

See above, but I chose those as being the most powerful on Earth, and they have no craters.

However, some of the biggest explosions on earth have involved water and lava. Mt.St.Helens, the volcanic eruption that silenced Waimangu Geyser, maybe Krakatoa. But those require a lot of lava and a lot of water, plentiful on Earth. Pretty scarce on Phobos now.
Answer: In one of these posts I read Phobos is half ice and half rock. Not much temperature change is needed to change ice to water.

Cite it!

If it was a thrown off piece of Mars, complete with sedimentary rock that included lots of water - it's sedimentary! Where does the lava, or at least heat come from?
Answer: Tidal gravity forcing the layers together.
See above, tides work to pull aprt, not push together.

And if it was sedimentary, I would expect the lines of eruption of warmed water to follow the strata. How in Geology do strata cross over, as you have pointed out?

Answer: I have lived and travelled often in our Canadian Shield. I have seen strata crisscross, and I have seen U shaped strata. Rock is very flexible. A short length of steel seems inflexible - however, I have helped lay 1/4 mile lengths of railroad track weighing 120 lbs. per foot (or was that 160 lbs? I think 160 lbs., but it was 25 years ago)and know they are more like a rubber band, relatively, which their names reflect, "Ribbon Rail".
Bent strata, sure! But crossed over strata?? Evidence, please.


Answer: Erosion by wind or water WHEN Phobos was part of a planet - I don't think Phobs is from Mars. The soft layers would erode in gullies, grooves.
When it was part of a planet. All over a 28km ball. On a planet. Hmmmmmm.

Well, different eyes see different things. As I follow any 'groove' I see wavy sides, as if the groove is a concatentation of a series of craters. As the groove gets fainter that wavyness diminishes until the groove appears smooth sided. Which I take to be the limit of resolution, not a sudden change to a different mechanism of formation.

Answer: If you examine the photos I referenced you would see two steam created craters in soft material, with a groove between the two craters .. the groove and craters together making a longer groove, exactly as on Phobs, with wavy lines.

Perhaps Phobos was once part of a planet which had atmosphere .. windblown sand could scour the layers like wind raising waves on ocean or lake .. or, I have seen 'waves' of sand created in shallow waters by the waves of the water (Canada's Great Lake Huron's famous shallow beaches being prime examples).

If you can show us a formation like Phobos ona lake floor, fine.

Answer: Visit Pinery Provincial Park on Lake Huron and see it in miniature .. but without craters. A trip to the Canadian Shield would be a real education as to rock formation.

I have emailed my friend Don, a Professor Emeritus in Geology who has an avid desire to stand on Mars for scientific and personal purposes, and requested his opinion of the photos of Phobos.

I'll look forward to that.

John

John, this forum to me is recreation, not work. If this forum were employment I would ensure I would "cite" my references, and I would ensure I have photos of strata crossing and bent into 'U's. If you ave seen the Rocky Mountains, or probably the Alps, you will have seen what was once ocean floor lifted through the clouds and the strata pointing straight up .. but I don't have a photograph or a refrence to prove it. This is not an excuse. If I say, "My brother Ron lives in Victoria," I don't expect anyone to say "prove it".

Also, I am not saying Phobo's steam venting occured as Phobos orbited Mars. We don't know Phobo's history, so anything is possible. I think that the stresses which caused the steam vents would have ripped Phobos apart had they been only a little more severe. The groves, as I said, could also have formed under vastly different conditions, when (as I believe but of course can't prove) Phobos was part of a planet.

I'm glad you didn't try to argue against the photo of the two steam vent craters joined in a groove .. but you did minimize it instead of admitting, "Yes - that is solid evidence of the processes Sputnick has been talking about." What other evidence on earth lies beneath vegetation and
deserts and ice caps and volcanic ash and pavement is anyone's guess.

Yes, I'm looking forward to Don's response also .. but he's still involved all daya nd night in his profession, travelling to give talks on papers, writing, mentoring students, etc. So I can only hope he finds time for my request.

volcanic steam vent and mud pot (mud pot resembling a crater)

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/steam ... 1697722080

Here's my picture of how Phobos came to be as it is.

1. Layers of ice and volcanic rock (probably ash) laid down on a planet in a place like Antarctica.

2. The planet is shattered.

3. Phobos without Stickney is captured by Jupiter or Saturn in an eliptical orbit, and the stresses cause an accordian effect on the layers - alternately squeezing (causing heating and venting of steam) and then relaxing the layers.

4. An impact creates Stickney, and knocks Phobos out of orbit.

5. Phobos is captured by Mars, and Olympus Mons spews red dust onto its surface.

I do have a time lapse video of all this - but it's in my mind and I haven't found a way to transfer it into electronic form, yet.

And where does the mysterious planet come from?

Possible Answer: Wikepedia explores the Asteroid belt so well that the writer says, "Some scientists believe (this and that) while others believe (that and this) .. a recognition that theories are not fact until full proven. Among the questioned thises and thatsis is whether the belt was at one time a planet .. if it was, "Computer simulations suggest that the original asteroid belt may have contained mass equivalent to the Earth." Widepedia also talks of volcanic activity and ice on the four planetoids some scientists think disintegrated into the belt, even 'a snow line' within the belt's area. So .. because we don't know much for certain .. anything is possible. In my little video I would place a planet as the origin of the asteroid belt, and as the source of the chunk which became Phobos.

John - To confirm my theory that Phobos is covered by loose, granular material -

From Wikepedia - "Recent images from Mars Global Surveyor indicate that Phobos is covered with a layer of fine-grained regolith at least 100 metres thick; it is believed to have been created by impacts from other bodies, but it is not known how the material stuck to an object with almost no gravity."

I made my assumption strictly from noting that the walls of the grooves were soft in shape - no jagged edges or steep angles - but as if they were built up from fluffy material thrown up and fallen back down .. as if from a steam vent. I suggest that the material sticks to the surface through crystalization of the water - snow spikes clinging to each other .. of course the snow is almost certainly mixed with granular or powdered rock.

Nothing new, S.
Regolith is ubiquitous:
"Regolith (Greek: "blanket rock") is a layer of loose, heterogeneous material covering solid rock. It includes dust, soil, broken rock, and other related materials and is present on Earth, the Moon, some asteroids, and other planets. "
Wikipedia entry for regolith.
If you despise the wiki, google for regolith. It's a standard gelogical term.
John

Right - nothing new - but 200 feet thick? As if the strata of Phobos were accordioned countless times, venting granular material each time .. building to new heights. It also shows my instinct about what is covering Phobos was right, which strengthens my faith in my instincts about the natural world (worlds).

Please note, John, that the photo of the steam vent groove on earth shows fine grained craters, a material which could be built up 200 feet high. I don't think the material constructing the grooves on Phobos is normal Regolith .. I'm sure it won't contain chunks of rock .. just granular, steam blasted particles .. perhaps a rare chunk from an impact.

Despise Wikipedia? Not! The astronomy articles I've read are non-judgemental - open - honest in admission that scientists have different opinions about the same phenomenon.