Page 2 of 2
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:59 pm
by Ann
Christian G. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:21 am
Great discussion, great galaxy! About those extra arms, if they originate in the central black hole's activity, why do they run more or less parallel to the galaxy instead of perpendicular to it? Is it that the bh's accretion disk is not aligned at all with the galactic disk? Is a SMBH's orientation independent of its host galaxy orientation and can shoot jets virtually in any direction?
As for the maser vs laser part, I think I get it, it's the "water" maser part I don't get! Where does water come in the picture, what's its function?
Christian, I would guess that the jets are "ejected at less than escape velocity", so that they fall back onto the galaxy again.
As to where water comes into the water masers, we are undoubtedly talking about
H2O in gaseous form.
National Radio Astronomy Observatory wrote:
Water has been detected in the most massive galaxy in the early Universe, according to new observations from the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array (ALMA). Scientists studying SPT0311-58 found H2O, along with carbon monoxide in the galaxy, which is located nearly 12.88 billion light-years from Earth...
The new research comprises the most detailed study of
molecular gas content of a galaxy in the early Universe to date and the most distant detection of H2O in a regular star-forming galaxy.
It is not surprising that we find quite a lot of H
2O in the universe. I'm sure you know that hydrogen, H, is by far the most abundant element in the universe. Helium is the second most abundant element. But did you know that oxygen, O, is the third most abundant element in the universe?
It's no wonder, then, that water, a molecule consisting of the most abundant and the third most abundant element in the universe, is very common out in space.
The problem is that when we hear the word
water, we typically think of liquid water,
, which is so incredibly important and also relatively abundant here on Earth. In space, however, liquid water hardly exists. Water is found in either solid or gaseous form in the universe.
All right, yes, I know, Chris, liquid water may exist on many planets hidden below thick ice sheets. And yes, there may also be liquid water on the surface on some planets, of course. But that water will almost certainly not end up in water masers.
Ann
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 6:32 pm
by VictorBorun
VictorBorun wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 8:15 pm
M106 combo.jpgM106 combo-.jpg
...
to my eye the dust lanes in the optic picture are not in the plane of the disk at all.
They form a cylinder wall above the disk to the right of the core, seen clearly, and a wall below the disk, to the left of the core, seen hazily.
So they might be the traces of past jets, of similar angles to the disk but different galactic azimuths
Also there are a few coincidences between the current jets (in radio and X-rays) and H-alpha pink narrow-band filter input to the optic picture.
The greatest is long jet end above the plane, the rightmost of the four jet ends
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:41 pm
by AVAO
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:40 pm
Ann wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:33 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:06 am
Sure. But I couldn't even find that zoomable version. There is one at
https://esawebb.org/images/potm2407a/, but it is much less detailed than Jac's close-up. Unless it's just Jac's image processing expertise that brings out the individual stars?
Johnny, Jac gave you this link:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/540 ... 24c5_o.jpg
When I click on that link on my computer, I get a picture of high resolution. I uploaded a part of it to my computer, and this is what it looks like:
Center o M106 JWST zoom in.png
Click to see the full size of it. Note the little black dot right in the center of M106 that Jac must have gotten rid of in his version of this image.
I must say that although I was able to see this resolution om my computer, I was unable to see it on my phone.
Ann
Yes, I know that's Jac's high res image, but I'm asking how he got it. I thought he was implying that it was part of one of those typical zoomable images that ESA and NASA often provide to enable interactive exploring. I'm still looking for that source. Unless Jac used some other source and just zoomed in to it himself, in which case I'd like to know what that source was.
Thanks for continuing the discussion, which I had somewhat lost sight of due to my job...
It is actually the case that I often work with the raw data from HST and JWST on the MAST portal.
The raw data there, when processed accordingly, is usually a bit better than what NASA then publishes for the wider public.
This is particularly advantageous if you are only interested in specific details. I often get the colors from other sources, as the color mixtures from the IR range of JWST often destroy the entire spatiality of the images, even if they are scientifically correct
(compare for example:
https://esawebb.org/images/potm2407a )
By zoom I did not mean the classic zoom from the ESA platform, but that in the case of M106, JWST was focused on the core area of the galaxy. The MIRI data has not yet been released here. That's why I chose F150w, a wavelength that has the highest sharpness in the core area. Unfortunately, you can't see anything of the galaxy there because of all the stars. This is why I compared it with the Hubble image, so I could better estimate the magnitude of the zoom section.The Spitzer data already give a taste of what the MIRI images of JWST could look like...
Original data: NASA/ESA SST jac berne (flickr)
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:53 pm
by Christian G.
Ann wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:59 pm
Christian G. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:21 am
Great discussion, great galaxy! About those extra arms, if they originate in the central black hole's activity, why do they run more or less parallel to the galaxy instead of perpendicular to it? Is it that the bh's accretion disk is not aligned at all with the galactic disk? Is a SMBH's orientation independent of its host galaxy orientation and can shoot jets virtually in any direction?
As for the maser vs laser part, I think I get it, it's the "water" maser part I don't get! Where does water come in the picture, what's its function?
Christian, I would guess that the jets are "ejected at less than escape velocity", so that they fall back onto the galaxy again.
As to where water comes into the water masers, we are undoubtedly talking about
H2O in gaseous form.
National Radio Astronomy Observatory wrote:
Water has been detected in the most massive galaxy in the early Universe, according to new observations from the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array (ALMA). Scientists studying SPT0311-58 found H2O, along with carbon monoxide in the galaxy, which is located nearly 12.88 billion light-years from Earth...
The new research comprises the most detailed study of
molecular gas content of a galaxy in the early Universe to date and the most distant detection of H2O in a regular star-forming galaxy.
It is not surprising that we find quite a lot of H
2O in the universe. I'm sure you know that hydrogen, H, is by far the most abundant element in the universe. Helium is the second most abundant element. But did you know that oxygen, O, is the third most abundant element in the universe?
It's no wonder, then, that water, a molecule consisting of the most abundant and the third most abundant element in the universe, is very common out in space.
The problem is that when we hear the word
water, we typically think of liquid water,
, which is so incredibly important and also relatively abundant here on Earth. In space, however, liquid water hardly exists. Water is found in either solid or gaseous form in the universe.
All right, yes, I know, Chris, liquid water may exist on many planets hidden below thick ice sheets. And yes, there may also be liquid water on the surface on some planets, of course. But that water will almost certainly not end up in water masers.
Ann
Thanks for your answers!
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:13 pm
by johnnydeep
AVAO wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:41 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:40 pm
Ann wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:33 pm
Johnny, Jac gave you this link:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/540 ... 24c5_o.jpg
When I click on that link on my computer, I get a picture of high resolution. I uploaded a part of it to my computer, and this is what it looks like:
Center o M106 JWST zoom in.png
Click to see the full size of it. Note the little black dot right in the center of M106 that Jac must have gotten rid of in his version of this image.
I must say that although I was able to see this resolution om my computer, I was unable to see it on my phone.
Ann
Yes, I know that's Jac's high res image, but I'm asking how he got it. I thought he was implying that it was part of one of those typical zoomable images that ESA and NASA often provide to enable interactive exploring. I'm still looking for that source. Unless Jac used some other source and just zoomed in to it himself, in which case I'd like to know what that source was.
Thanks for continuing the discussion, which I had somewhat lost sight of due to my job...
It is actually the case that I often work with the raw data from HST and JWST on the MAST portal.
The raw data there, when processed accordingly, is usually a bit better than what NASA then publishes for the wider public.
This is particularly advantageous if you are only interested in specific details. I often get the colors from other sources, as the color mixtures from the IR range of JWST often destroy the entire spatiality of the images, even if they are scientifically correct
(compare for example:
https://esawebb.org/images/potm2407a )
By zoom I did not mean the classic zoom from the ESA platform, but that in the case of M106, JWST was focused on the core area of the galaxy. The MIRI data has not yet been released here. That's why I chose F150w, a wavelength that has the highest sharpness in the core area. Unfortunately, you can't see anything of the galaxy there because of all the stars. This is why I compared it with the Hubble image, so I could better estimate the magnitude of the zoom section.The Spitzer data already give a taste of what the MIRI images of JWST could look like...
Original data: NASA/ESA SST jac berne (flickr)
Alright. You did a lot of stuff that I don't really understand and couldn't replicate, so I guess we can move on now.
But, is there a link to the data that you used, the "raw data from HST and JWST on the MAST portal", that I would be a able to access? What format are the files in? Not a normal image format (tiff, jpeg, png, etc.) I presume?
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:20 pm
by Chris Peterson
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:13 pm
But, is there a link to the data that you used, the "raw data from HST and JWST on the MAST portal", that I would be a able to access? What format are the files in? Not a normal image format (tiff, jpeg, png, etc.) I presume?
The image (and often data table) format almost universally used in astronomy is FITS (Flexible Image Transport System). There are many free tools available to read this format.
FITS Liberator is very popular with amateur astronomical image processors and can do some basic scaling of the FITS files and export them as TIFF files that can be worked with in common image processors. The data portal is at
https://mast.stsci.edu/portal/Mashup/Cl ... ortal.html and has a bit of a learning curve associated with using it effectively.
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:36 pm
by johnnydeep
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:20 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:13 pm
But, is there a link to the data that you used, the "raw data from HST and JWST on the MAST portal", that I would be a able to access? What format are the files in? Not a normal image format (tiff, jpeg, png, etc.) I presume?
The image (and often data table) format almost universally used in astronomy is FITS (Flexible Image Transport System). There are many free tools available to read this format.
FITS Liberator is very popular with amateur astronomical image processors and can do some basic scaling of the FITS files and export them as TIFF files that can be worked with in common image processors. The data portal is at
https://mast.stsci.edu/portal/Mashup/Cl ... ortal.html and has a bit of a learning curve associated with using it effectively.
Thanks. I got as far as this in MAST, but gave up after GIMP started going bonkers opening a FITS file format. Life is too short...
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:42 pm
by Chris Peterson
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:36 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:20 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:13 pm
But, is there a link to the data that you used, the "raw data from HST and JWST on the MAST portal", that I would be a able to access? What format are the files in? Not a normal image format (tiff, jpeg, png, etc.) I presume?
The image (and often data table) format almost universally used in astronomy is FITS (Flexible Image Transport System). There are many free tools available to read this format.
FITS Liberator is very popular with amateur astronomical image processors and can do some basic scaling of the FITS files and export them as TIFF files that can be worked with in common image processors. The data portal is at
https://mast.stsci.edu/portal/Mashup/Cl ... ortal.html and has a bit of a learning curve associated with using it effectively.
Thanks. I got as far as this in MAST, but gave up after GIMP started going bonkers opening a FITS file format. Life is too short...
m106 mast database.jpg
That's why I provided the link to FITS Liberator...
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:53 pm
by johnnydeep
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:42 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:36 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:20 pm
The image (and often data table) format almost universally used in astronomy is FITS (Flexible Image Transport System). There are many free tools available to read this format.
FITS Liberator is very popular with amateur astronomical image processors and can do some basic scaling of the FITS files and export them as TIFF files that can be worked with in common image processors. The data portal is at
https://mast.stsci.edu/portal/Mashup/Cl ... ortal.html and has a bit of a learning curve associated with using it effectively.
Thanks. I got as far as this in MAST, but gave up after GIMP started going bonkers opening a FITS file format. Life is too short...
m106 mast database.jpg
That's why I provided the link to FITS Liberator...
Yes, I know. Thanks. I was surprised to see that Windows already considered the file format associated with GIMP, and indeed GIMP
tried to open it, but it got into some sort of endless loop and I had to kill it. I guess GIMP isn't good with FITS files.
Maybe I'll be more inspired to install FITS Liberator tomorrow.
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:13 pm
by Chris Peterson
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:53 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:42 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:36 pm
Thanks. I got as far as this in MAST, but gave up after GIMP started going bonkers opening a FITS file format. Life is too short...
m106 mast database.jpg
That's why I provided the link to FITS Liberator...
Yes, I know. Thanks. I was surprised to see that Windows already considered the file format associated with GIMP, and indeed GIMP
tried to open it, but it got into some sort of endless loop and I had to kill it. I guess GIMP isn't good with FITS files.
Maybe I'll be more inspired to install FITS Liberator tomorrow.
The "Flexible" part of FITS is very, very flexible. There are a lot of ways data can be stored, so some apps may fail to read the files properly. A basic FITS file is just a header and a 2D single channel data array. Anything that claims to read FITS files will likely do fine. But the file can contain multiple channels, data tables, even multidimensional arrays.
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:25 am
by AVAO
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:53 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:42 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:36 pm
Thanks. I got as far as this in MAST, but gave up after GIMP started going bonkers opening a FITS file format. Life is too short...
m106 mast database.jpg
That's why I provided the link to FITS Liberator...
Yes, I know. Thanks. I was surprised to see that Windows already considered the file format associated with GIMP, and indeed GIMP
tried to open it, but it got into some sort of endless loop and I had to kill it. I guess GIMP isn't good with FITS files.
Maybe I'll be more inspired to install FITS Liberator tomorrow.
...I have nothing on youtube, but maybe Geck can help...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kGPGhbefhI&t=1s
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 11:58 am
by johnnydeep
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:13 pm
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:53 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:42 pm
That's why I provided the link to FITS Liberator...
Yes, I know. Thanks. I was surprised to see that Windows already considered the file format associated with GIMP, and indeed GIMP
tried to open it, but it got into some sort of endless loop and I had to kill it. I guess GIMP isn't good with FITS files.
Maybe I'll be more inspired to install FITS Liberator tomorrow.
The "Flexible" part of FITS is very, very flexible. There are a lot of ways data can be stored, so some apps may fail to read the files properly. A basic FITS file is just a header and a 2D single channel data array. Anything that claims to read FITS files will likely do fine. But the file can contain multiple channels, data tables, even multidimensional arrays.
Ah. Thanks.
Re: APOD: M106: A Spiral Galaxy with a Strange... (2024 Oct 09)
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:02 pm
by johnnydeep
AVAO wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:25 am
johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:53 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:42 pm
That's why I provided the link to FITS Liberator...
Yes, I know. Thanks. I was surprised to see that Windows already considered the file format associated with GIMP, and indeed GIMP
tried to open it, but it got into some sort of endless loop and I had to kill it. I guess GIMP isn't good with FITS files.
Maybe I'll be more inspired to install FITS Liberator tomorrow.
...I have nothing on youtube, but maybe Geck can help...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kGPGhbefhI&t=1s
Thanks, that looks pretty good. And from the illustrious Judy Schmidt (aka Geckzilla) herself, no less!
, which is so incredibly important and also relatively abundant here on Earth. In space, however, liquid water hardly exists. Water is found in either solid or gaseous form in the universe.
