APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Post by neufer » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:22 pm

Wolf Kotenberrg wrote:
Maybe someday they will put a telescope on the Moon, or even some asteroid.
http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2007/05/liquid_telescope wrote:
A Plan to Build a Giant Liquid Telescope on the Moon
Alexander Gelfand Email 05.21.07 Even by astronomical standards, Roger Angel thinks big. Angel, a leading astronomer at the University of Arizona, is proposing an enormous liquid-mirror telescope on the moon that could be hundreds of times more sensitive than the Hubble Space Telescope.

Using a rotating dish of reflective liquid as its primary mirror, Angel's telescope would the largest ever built, and would permit astronomers to study the oldest and most distant objects in the universe, including the very first stars.

"It's an idea that's been around, and we decided to flesh it out," Angel says.

Angel, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, a MacArthur Fellow and a Fellow of the Royal Society, is currently concluding a study to determine the feasibility of constructing a lunar liquid mirror telescope, or LMT, for NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts, an NASA-funded space think tank.

LMT's have been built on Earth -- the Large Zenith Telescope in British Columbia is the third largest telescope in North America -- but the moon's low gravity and lack of atmosphere would allow for a truly gigantic instrument.

Angel dreams of a 100-meter mirror, which would be larger than two side-by-side football fields and would collect 1,736 times more light than the Hubble.

Even a 20-meter instrument, which is more likely in the near term, would be 70 times more sensitive than the Hubble and could detect objects 100 times fainter than those that will be seen with the James Webb Space Telescope, a next-generation orbiting observatory scheduled for launch in 2013.

"At first, it sort of sounds like a crazy idea," says Paul Hickson of the University of British Columbia, one of two Canadian LMT experts who collaborated with Angel on the study. "But when you go through it in some detail, you realize it could actually work."

NIAC director Bob Cassanova agrees. "It's quite feasible," he says. "The debate about this is about some of the details." The biggest advantage is the relative low cost. Liquid telescopes cost 10 to 20 times less to build than polished aluminum mirrors of similar size, in part because they needn't be engineered to the same tolerances. And even the largest liquid mirrors don't require the sophisticated support structures that are needed to prevent solid ones from sagging under their own weight. "The forces of nature conspire to give them the right shape," Borra says.

Although the final cost of the project is yet to be determined, a 20-meter lunar LMT ought to be a bargain in comparison to the James Webb Space Telescope, which is expected to carry a $4.5 billion price tag. It would also make the JWST look like a child's spyglass. "There's very good science to be done, and you're not going to make a telescope of that size and sensitivity in space without spending an ungodly sum of money," Angel says.

There are many advantages to building a deep-space telescope on the moon. A lunar LMT would be free from the atmospheric distortion that afflicts terrestrial telescopes of all kinds, and from the self-generated winds that produce troublesome waves in the largest earth-based LMTs.

The light from the universe's most distant stars is intensely red-shifted, and the airless lunar deep-freeze would be ideal for infrared observation – as would a liquid mirror: While they perform as well as conventional mirrors at visible wavelengths, liquid mirrors do even better in the infrared.

Alas, the same low temperatures that would facilitate infrared observation would also turn mercury, the liquid used in terrestrial LMTs, into a solid. So the greatest technical challenge for Angel's team lies in finding reflective liquids with low freezing points and vapor pressures – liquids that would neither freeze nor evaporate into space.

That task fell to Ermanno Borra, a physicist and liquid-mirror pioneer at Laval University in Quebec who first made the case for a lunar LMT in 1991. Recently, Borra has been experimenting with metal liquid-like films, or MELFFs, that reflect light as effectively as aluminum. Borra declined to comment on his results until they've been published in the journal Nature later this summer. But his teammates were impressed. "It looks very promising," Hickson says.

Borra's MELFFs are new, but liquid mirrors have been around for a while. Sir Isaac Newton first recognized that gravity and centrifugal force would cause a rotating liquid to assume a parabolic shape. In 1850, Italian astronomer Ernesto Capocci suggested that a spinning dish of mercury could serve as the primary mirror in a telescope. And the American physicist Robert W. Wood built several working mercury-mirror telescopes in the early 1900s.

Still, the earliest LMTs were beset with problems. They couldn't maintain stable rotation speeds, and their crude bearings caused the mirrors to vibrate. And since liquid mirrors cannot be tilted in order to track objects as they move across the sky, early efforts at liquid-mirror astrophotography generated streaks of light that quickly exited the field of view. (While fixed pointing precludes some kinds of astronomical work, it doesn't interfere with studies of the most distant stars and galaxies. thanks to the homogeneous and isotropropic nature of the universe, these objects are found wherever one might look.)

In recent years, however, Borra and Hickson have overcome these obstacles.

Ultra-smooth air bearings and synchronous motors governed by crystal oscillators and optical sensors eliminated the vibration and unstable rotation that plagued early LMTs. (Air bearings wouldn't work on the moon, so Angel proposes using superconductor magnetic bearings instead.)

The tracking problem was solved with a technique called drift-scanning, in the rotation of the moon is taken into account by software. Digitization also allows images from many nights' observation to be combined, resulting in extremely long cumulative exposure times.

With Borra's help, Hickson built the Large Zenith Telescope , a 6-meter LMT that is now the third largest telescope in North America. Hickson is currently working on a plan to build an 8-meter instrument in Chile.

A relatively small lunar LMT could be deployed robotically, its rotating dish unfurling like an umbrella. But building a 20-meter or 100-meter instrument would require human hands.>>
Art Neuendorffer

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 13843
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Post by Ann » Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:43 pm

matsutoya wrote:This higher resolution of todays picture of the Big Dipper has what appears to be an unusual string of 28 stars or so trailing away from the star Merak. I have never seen something like this before, nor have I seen any attempt at explaining this sort of phenonema. I was wondering if M 108 and/or M 97 may have played a part in causing of this, since we see on the Owl Nebula photo what appears to be a small remnant of the same color trailing that beatiful nebula.
We can be sure that M108 and M97 have nothing to do with the arrangements of stars seen around the Big Dipper. I used my software to check out a number of stars in the vicinity of M108 and M97, and several of them are A- and F-type main sequence stars about 300 light-years away. If you ask me, I'd say that these stars belong to some sort of common group or association. But not all the stars here are about 300 light-years away. The prominent orange star which can be seen at about 8 o'clock from Merak is a K2 giant about 1,000 light-years away.

The reason why M97 and M108 can have nothing to do with the arrangement of stars around the Big Dipper is that these two Messier objects are so much farther away than the stars here. M97 is about 2,600 light-years away, according to Wikipedia. And M108 is between 40 and 50 million light-years away.

I don't think there is anything mysterious about the arrangement of stars in the vicinity of M108 and M97. Stars form patterns for no reason. The most famous "line-up" of stars in the sky is probably Kemble's Cascade:
Photo: Walter MacDonald.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemble's_Cascade writes:
Kemble's Cascade (Kemble 1), located in the constellation Camelopardalis, is an asterism — a pattern created by unrelated stars. It is an apparent straight line of more than 20 colorful 5th to 10th magnitude stars over a distance of approximately five moon diameters, and the open cluster NGC 1502 can be found at one end.
Another famous asterism of unrelated stars that form an intriguing pattern is the Coathanger:
Nice coathanger, isn't it? Even though it's upside down. But the stars have nothing to do with one another, and they are situated at very different distances from us. Photo: Greg Parker.

Ann
Color Commentator

graydawn

Re: APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Post by graydawn » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:46 pm

Thank you Ann.

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Post by neufer » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:14 pm

Ann wrote:
I don't think there is anything mysterious about the arrangement of stars in the vicinity of M108 and M97. Stars form patterns for no reason. The most famous "line-up" of stars in the sky is probably Kemble's Cascade
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100128.html
Art Neuendorffer

ourkind
Asternaut
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 12:58 am

Re: APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Post by ourkind » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:59 am

Has anyone noticed what seems to be a satellite streak between M101 and Alkaid ... at least that is what I think it is. Great photo!

KennyZ

Re: APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Post by KennyZ » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:34 pm

This is the first time I have ever seen an image of the Big Dipper which showed what appear to be gas clouds. The Dipper seems awfully far from the Galactic plane to have clouds like that. What am I really seeing here?

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 13843
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: APOD: The Big Dipper (2011 Jun 24)

Post by Ann » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:08 pm

KennyZ wrote:This is the first time I have ever seen an image of the Big Dipper which showed what appear to be gas clouds. The Dipper seems awfully far from the Galactic plane to have clouds like that. What am I really seeing here?
You may actually be seeing gas clouds. The existence of gas clouds is well-known around galaxy M81, and M81 is in Ursa Major, not far from the Big Dipper.
Image
This image by Jordi Gallego shows the so-called Integrated Flux Nebula around M81 and M82. It seems quite likely that many or most of the gas clouds seen here are in the Milky Way, or in the halo of the Milky Way.







Ann
Color Commentator

Post Reply