APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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Chris Peterson
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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by Chris Peterson » Fri May 21, 2010 2:07 pm

Doum wrote:Can these jets be use to more define the gravity effect of dark matter that seem to surround many galaxies. I mean can dark matter deflect the path of these giant jets.
I'd say probably not. Because dark matter isn't affected by electromagnetic forces, it doesn't appear to clump in any way at a small scale. So while it may exist in large amounts around massive objects, it is apparently homogeneous. As such, it isn't going to deflect anything moving inside the sort of halo it forms.
Also, can these relativitic particles from the jets have sometime a collision with the unknown particle (theory for now) of dark matter ( if we know what the effect of such a collision will be, then i suppose we can detect it).
Non-baryonic dark matter is viewed as "weakly interacting". Since little is known about the actual particles involved, it isn't known just how weak that is. It could mean not interacting at all, or it could mean interacting just a little- like a neutrino, for instance. But there is an upper bound on the degree to which dark matter and ordinary matter could interact, and it is very small. So even if jets interact with dark matter, so few interactions will be involved that any product of them is likely to be deeply buried in the noise, and undetectable.
Chris

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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by tesla » Sun May 23, 2010 10:16 am

If nothing can escape from a black hole, then a super massive black hole will let a lot less than nothing escape! So how does a scientific theory,(which is what a black hole is), focus a plasma beam, thousands of light years long?

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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by wonderboy » Sun May 23, 2010 10:43 am

petsie wrote:Hi folks,

I'm just a normal guy without any specific astrophysical knowledge but with a fairly interest in cosmology.

My question is: how can such a very huge mass have been concentrated like in the black hole in the center of M87? Is it just the time since big bang which allowed the weakest of the known four forces to collect this mass from dozens or hundreds galaxies, each having a "moderate" black hole in their centers?

If I understood some popular texts about cosmology well, the universe is considered to be 'flat' due to inflation. 'Flat' is understood by me as: Take a small part of the universe (some megaparsecs^3 (or how many dimensions we need)) get the mean of the physical circumstances and you've got a picture of the universe.

A few billions of sun masses concentrated in one stellar object seem to be a huge variance. And I'm a bit afraid of an answer like "Yes, over the time some galaxies melted and their black holes did so similarly", because the universe would be a bit boring, wouldn't it? It would be more exciting, if some very very small differences short time after big bang would have been blown up by inflation so that matter had no other choice than to concentrate locally in such a remarkable amount.

Just to outline my question: Is there a contradiction "flat universe" <-> a black hole past comprehension?

P.S.: It is very impressive that the weak gravitation (together with conservation of angular momentum and magnetic induction) accelerates matter to ultra-high velocities ("The jet of matter emerging from the core extends at least 5000 light-years from the nucleus of Messier 87 and is made up of matter ejected from the galaxy, most likely by a supermassive black hole. This motion is believed by some to be a visual result of the relativistic velocity of the jet [of course (comment by me)], and not true superluminal motion. However, detection of such motion supports the theory that quasars, BL Lac objects and radio galaxies may all be the same phenomenon, known as active galaxies, viewed from different perspectives.[47][48]", In pictures taken by the Hubble Space Telescope in 1999, the motion of Messier 87's jet was measured at four to six times the speed of light.from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_87)

I thought the speed of light was set and nothing could go faster?

Paul
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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by wonderboy » Sun May 23, 2010 10:47 am

tesla wrote:If nothing can escape from a black hole, then a super massive black hole will let a lot less than nothing escape! So how does a scientific theory,(which is what a black hole is), focus a plasma beam, thousands of light years long?

Thats a good question! I want to know the answer to that aswell. Surely a hole from which nothing escapes (not even light) should keep everything at its centre, either that or it would expel the plasma and suck it back in.

I'm confused :(


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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by rstevenson » Sun May 23, 2010 1:31 pm

The material in the plasma was never in the black hole, so it doesn't need to escape. Google "black hole jets" for more info.
Rob

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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by neufer » Sun May 23, 2010 2:14 pm

rstevenson wrote:
The material in the plasma was never in the black hole, so it doesn't need to escape.

Google "black hole jets" for more info.
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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by wonderboy » Sun May 23, 2010 2:16 pm

This is a good link to a website giving details about the Jet eminating from M87.


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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by wonderboy » Sun May 23, 2010 2:19 pm

So basically a blackhole generates a humungous magnetic field which some mass can escape through, forever lost to the blackhole, and some mass gets reflected off of the magnetic field back out to space at the speed of light? (well almost).



Paul
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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by bystander » Sun May 23, 2010 3:47 pm

petsie wrote:
Wikipedia: Messier 87 Jet wrote:The jet of matter emerging from the core extends at least 5000 light-years from the nucleus of Messier 87 and is made up of matter ejected from the galaxy, most likely by a supermassive black hole. In pictures taken by the Hubble Space Telescope in 1999, the motion of Messier 87's jet was measured at four to six times the speed of light. This motion is believed by some to be a visual result of the relativistic velocity of the jet, and not true superluminal motion.
wonderboy wrote:I thought the speed of light was set and nothing could go faster?
Wikipedia: Superluminal Motion: Messier 87 Gas Jet wrote:
Messier 87 etc. Gas Jets

An alternative explanation for the Gas Jets. moving at 6c is derived from the Discrete Field Model DFM and is consistent with the NASA Lunar Ranging results (above). The magnetic field of the super massive rotating black hole will be contorted to a 'tube' at the poles, ejecting the particles. The jet is proposed as a moving 'field' gradually slowing and diffusing, but with new particles travelling in its core at close to 'c' within its own moving frame, and more new ones at 'c' in their frame. Newer core particles would be more radiant. From the Hubble space telescopes 'preferred' frame they would in this case appear to be moving at 6c, but none would exceed 'c' in the quantum field they are moving within.

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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by neufer » Mon May 24, 2010 2:36 am

petsie wrote:
Wikipedia: Messier 87 Jet wrote:The jet of matter emerging from the core extends at least 5000 light-years from the nucleus of Messier 87 and is made up of matter ejected from the galaxy, most likely by a supermassive black hole. In pictures taken by the Hubble Space Telescope in 1999, the motion of Messier 87's jet was measured at four to six times the speed of light. This motion is believed by some to be a visual result of the relativistic velocity of the jet, and not true superluminal motion.
wonderboy wrote:I thought the speed of light was set and nothing could go faster?
The speed of light is set and nothing can go faster;

that does not mean that nothing can give the illusion of going faster:

_________ superluminal motion
Image
_________ apparent speed of blob = 3/2 c
-----------------------------------------------------------------
_____ Alternatively (or in addition):

bystander wrote:
Wikipedia: Superluminal Motion: Messier 87 Gas Jet wrote: Messier 87 etc. Gas Jets

An alternative explanation for the Gas Jets. moving at 6c is derived from the Discrete Field Model DFM and is consistent with the NASA Lunar Ranging results (above). The magnetic field of the super massive rotating black hole will be contorted to a 'tube' at the poles, ejecting the particles. The jet is proposed as a moving 'field' gradually slowing and diffusing, but with new particles travelling in its core at close to 'c' within its own moving frame, and more new ones at 'c' in their frame. Newer core particles would be more radiant. From the Hubble space telescopes 'preferred' frame they would in this case appear to be moving at 6c, but none would exceed 'c' in the quantum field they are moving within.
Art Neuendorffer

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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by spacedad » Mon May 24, 2010 3:13 am

I believe that the jets flowing out from black holes like a pressure release valve. Nothing can escape from a black hole right? What if this is part of how black holes form or die? These streams of light could be the "uncaptureable" energy from the formation of a black hole, before it achieves total control of the matter it holds within. OR it could be the gradual release of energy preceding some kind of galactic explosion. I'm just saying... it could be.

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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by Doum » Wed May 26, 2010 2:30 am

Thanks neufer and Chris for your answer.

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Re: APOD: M87: Elliptical Galaxy with Jet (2010 May 20)

Post by bystander » Wed May 26, 2010 3:08 am


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