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Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 11:49 pm
by Bret Webster
johndmura wrote:I keep looking at Astro and I am sure that not only is the caption wrong, so is the picture. An exposure long enough to capture those stars would have left "star trails" I have seen pictographs like your images on a rafting trip down the San Juan River in Utah and they are located along the San Juan River not anywhere near Canyonlands. park! I would rather see old photos than having my "chain pulled" by sophist pundits who think they are clever.
Hi John! I'll try to address your "challenges"! Thanks for the feedback.
1. Star Trails - this is a common question and I'm glad you asked it! Taking these images at night is not easy. It helps a lot to be using a Canon 5D MkII with a full frame sensor and quite good onboard noise reduction. These kinds of night shots need to be taken with ISO at least 1600 and up. This image was taken with ISO 3200. If you have a fairly recent DSLR go outside some night, set the iso to 3200, point it at the sky and see what it looks like...you'll see a LOT but it'll be noisy and not satisfactory. It's a credit to the Canon full frame sensor and noise routines that it can perform at such high sensitivity and get noise into a manageable range so now at least we have an extraordinarily sensitive sensor that can gather light like no consumer camera prior. When the sensor is on for 30-60 seconds at extreme high sensitivities it builds up enough heat to impart a thermal "signal" upon itself in the form of "noise". The onboard noise reduction is most helpful because it takes a blank shot for the same duration after you're done with the original and subtracts that signal from your original. This cannot be accomplished on your computer at home but must be completed in the field.
Next - consider the aperture and the focal length of the lenses used....the wider the lens the longer time you have before you start to see tracking. If you were zoomed way in with a 300mm lens at the sky it moves rather rapidly across your field of view. However if you are using a 15mm fisheye/f2.8 spherical (as was used for this shot) you can expose for quite some time (on the order of 60 seconds) before tracking becomes an issue. You are indeed "fighting" tracking/star trails to attempt shots like these and it is star trailing/tracking that largely bounds your exposure time! Fact is all my shots have some level of star trails they're just manageable and negligible at the settings used. This shot has very little (although a bit angling upper left to lower right) because I used the fisheye which encompasses a full 180 degree field of view! Most of my night shots are not taken with the 15mm fisheye because I prefer the 24mm/f1.4 which is an even faster lens. f2.8 is really a limit I believe for this kind of photography. Note with the 24mm lens I usually can only expose for 30-40 seconds before trails become an issue and they still have more star tracking than in this Ghost Panel image.
It's a further tribute to the Canon full-frame sensor that you can "paint" the foreground rock to your artistic satisfaction with the ISO at 3200 and still generate a nice clean rock image that is not noisy. The point is modern technology is enabling new regions of photographic expression.
So although I'm sure that's unsatisfactory I hope it begins to address the doubts that you expressed about star trails. Actually an astute challenge and I thank you for it.
2. Regarding the location of the alleged "Ghost Panel" actually being located on the San Juan river... Man oh man do I love the San Juan river! Like you I am now disappointed in myself, the Utah Museum of Natural History, the University of Utah, Canyonlands National Park and many many rock art lovers and archaeologists throughout the world that we would all be duped so easily into believing that the most spectacular and famous panel of rock art in North America is actually in Horseshoe Canyon when you have now confirmed and exposed (to my utter humiliation) that it can be found along the San Juan river!
John - Thanks for generating the provocative and useful conversation and challenges. This image is as presented with no punditry or sophistry and I hurt a little that you even suspected it!
Bret
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:23 am
by bystander
Nice shot, Bret. Congratulations on your APOD. And welcome to the Asterisk*. Hope we see more of your work.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:59 am
by Mosbycuz3tr
Much grass to neufer for answering my question.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:03 pm
by neufer
Mosbycuz3tr wrote:Much grass to neufer for answering my question.
Mercy buckets back at ya.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:33 pm
by owlice
bystander wrote:Nice shot, Bret. Congratulations on your APOD. And welcome to the Asterisk*. Hope we see more of your work.
Yes, welcome, Bret! (Hiya!)
Another of Bret's images can be seen on
this thread.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 2:00 pm
by Bret Webster
Mosbycuz3tr wrote:Not that I believe in them, but don't alien buffs cite the next to last figure as a prehistoric astronaut visitor? What are some more sane and sober archaeological musings?
I wanted to respond this central question! This question just begs at you constantly when you're at the site..."Why?"...particularly hanging there waiting for the sun to go down with the panel to keep you company.
My main observations about this question are:
a. The Great Gallery is meant to be seen from distance around the canyon floor. The pictographs are large.
b. They have an intimidating aspect to them as if to say "Beware! There are great powers here and danger for you!" Note the dark apparitions to the side of the Holy Ghost - they reminded me of "Dementors"! If you view the entire Great Gallery (see reference sites in narrative) the images seem cautionary and often chilling - note this image
http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000VLBUC444Gow/s which seems to say "This will be YOU if you go any further!".
c. The pictographs have an incredible amount of artistic skill applied...much more than the typical (and much younger) Anasazi and Fremont images around the Colorado Plateau. Someone spent a LOT of time on this creation and cared a lot about how it looked.
My rather watery conclusions are then:
1. Homage to Deity - Honor their God(s) - Supplicate the Great Powers - Get help for the future
2. Intimidate Intruders - "You are entering an area of great power and danger - think twice before acting up around here!"
3. Decoration - "Honey I love what you've done with the front room"
4. All the above
I've settled on a best guess that is all the above: 1-3 above. But I realize and enjoy the fact that this speculation could be laughably wrong!
Bret
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 2:30 pm
by Bret Webster
owlice wrote:bystander wrote:Nice shot, Bret. Congratulations on your APOD. And welcome to the Asterisk*. Hope we see more of your work.
Yes, welcome, Bret! (Hiya!)
Another of Bret's images can be seen on
this thread.
Thanks Owlice and Bystander! Glad to meet! and enjoy the forum very much! I know it takes a lot of work to keep it going and there are a lot of folks who are grateful!
Bret
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 2:38 pm
by wonderboy
Mousetrail wrote:The ancient signs on this earth that can only be read from the air are unmistakeable. Some thing, or sombody, flew over this earth thousands of years ago. There is a resemblance in the Ghost Panel figures and the rock drawings in the Coso Mountain Range at China Lake Navel Station, California. Since the animal drawings there are so correct, it is hard for me to believe that the aborigines suddenly switched from painting what they saw to painting human shaped objects from their imagination. I believe they were "visited" by what was alien to them at the time and they painted what they saw.
This guy would be interested in my "Earth is a Zoo" post. Its like we were part of some kind of catch and release programme. Saved from our imminent extinction, rehabilitated with the help of aliens who helped to create our first civilisations, once this was done they decided to leave us be. Its a bit like catching a lion who has been injured by his pack, rehabilitating him then putting him back into the wild somewhere else. If we can do it to other species on THIS planet, why couldnt much more advanced aliens (at the time) do it to a race of "humans?" I say "humans" because they wouldnt call us humans lol.
It kind of justifies itself in a way.
Paul
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:18 pm
by Eclectic Man
Chris Peterson wrote:Eclectic Man wrote:Um, how old is the sandstone? It could also be billions of years old.
Canyonlands sandstone was deposited in several episodes, from about 300 million years ago to about 65 million years ago. Most of the stars are much older than that.
Thanks for informing me of the age of the rocks, Bret and Chris, in any case, I expect that the cliff has not been exposed for billions of years. And it is a superb photo.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:29 pm
by neufer
Chris Peterson wrote:Eclectic Man wrote:Um, how old is the sandstone? It could also be billions of years old.
Canyonlands sandstone was deposited in several episodes,
from about 300 million years ago to about 65 million years ago.
Most of the stars are much older than that.
What about
most of the light from the Milky Way?
Wouldn't it come mostly from
very young bright stars?
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:49 pm
by Chris Peterson
neufer wrote:What about most of the light from the Milky Way?
Wouldn't it come mostly from very young bright stars?
Good question. I'd say no. I think the vast majority of stars in the Milky Way are main sequence, approximately solar mass objects. That makes them at least a few billion years old. Certainly the brightest stars are generally very young, but they are such a small fraction of the total stellar population that I don't think their light output comes close to competing with the older, dimmer stars.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 11:43 pm
by johndmura
This picture and its caption are a hoax
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 12:44 pm
by wonderboy
johndmura wrote:This picture and its caption are a hoax
By repeating yourself over and over again, what do you hope to achieve? I have googled the ghost panel (and I understand that google is in no way the be all and end all of searching) and all of the posts regarding the "Ghost Panel" have it located in Horseshoe Canyon.
The San Juan river rock art pictures bear a resembelance, but that is about all.
http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q= ... a=N&tab=wi
Now if Bret hadn't admitted that his locationing was wrong I would have stuck up for him here, but instead he has.
So all I can say is that it seems to me to be an easy mistake to make, so get over it, and provide constructive criticism not exclamations about how you have had your leg pulled in a hoax like fashion.
Paul
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:02 pm
by wonderboy
Bret Webster wrote:Mosbycuz3tr wrote:Not that I believe in them, but don't alien buffs cite the next to last figure as a prehistoric astronaut visitor? What are some more sane and sober archaeological musings?
I wanted to respond this central question! This question just begs at you constantly when you're at the site..."Why?"...particularly hanging there waiting for the sun to go down with the panel to keep you company.
My main observations about this question are:
a. The Great Gallery is meant to be seen from distance around the canyon floor. The pictographs are large.
b. They have an intimidating aspect to them as if to say "Beware! There are great powers here and danger for you!" Note the dark apparitions to the side of the Holy Ghost - they reminded me of "Dementors"! If you view the entire Great Gallery (see reference sites in narrative) the images seem cautionary and often chilling - note this image
http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000VLBUC444Gow/s which seems to say "This will be YOU if you go any further!".
c. The pictographs have an incredible amount of artistic skill applied...much more than the typical (and much younger) Anasazi and Fremont images around the Colorado Plateau. Someone spent a LOT of time on this creation and cared a lot about how it looked.
My rather watery conclusions are then:
1. Homage to Deity - Honor their God(s) - Supplicate the Great Powers - Get help for the future
2. Intimidate Intruders - "You are entering an area of great power and danger - think twice before acting up around here!"
3. Decoration - "Honey I love what you've done with the front room"
4. All the above
I've settled on a best guess that is all the above: 1-3 above. But I realize and enjoy the fact that this speculation could be laughably wrong!
Bret
Hey Bret, I for one like the photo, who cares if there was a slight mistake.
Anyway what you should do is visit
RJN's APOD inspired short story post and let loose some of your stories, i think its good to hear about people out in the field and their experiences, sitting in caves in Horseshoe canyons or san juan rivers or wherever the hell they are.
Paul.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:03 pm
by Bret Webster
wonderboy wrote:Bret Webster wrote:Mosbycuz3tr wrote:Not that I believe in them, but don't alien buffs cite the next to last figure as a prehistoric astronaut visitor? What are some more sane and sober archaeological musings?
I wanted to respond this central question! This question just begs at you constantly when you're at the site..."Why?"...particularly hanging there waiting for the sun to go down with the panel to keep you company.
My main observations about this question are:
a. The Great Gallery is meant to be seen from distance around the canyon floor. The pictographs are large.
b. They have an intimidating aspect to them as if to say "Beware! There are great powers here and danger for you!" Note the dark apparitions to the side of the Holy Ghost - they reminded me of "Dementors"! If you view the entire Great Gallery (see reference sites in narrative) the images seem cautionary and often chilling - note this image
http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000VLBUC444Gow/s which seems to say "This will be YOU if you go any further!".
c. The pictographs have an incredible amount of artistic skill applied...much more than the typical (and much younger) Anasazi and Fremont images around the Colorado Plateau. Someone spent a LOT of time on this creation and cared a lot about how it looked.
My rather watery conclusions are then:
1. Homage to Deity - Honor their God(s) - Supplicate the Great Powers - Get help for the future
2. Intimidate Intruders - "You are entering an area of great power and danger - think twice before acting up around here!"
3. Decoration - "Honey I love what you've done with the front room"
4. All the above
I've settled on a best guess that is all the above: 1-3 above. But I realize and enjoy the fact that this speculation could be laughably wrong!
Bret
Hey Bret, I for one like the photo, who cares if there was a slight mistake.
Anyway what you should do is visit
RJN's APOD inspired short story post and let loose some of your stories, i think its good to hear about people out in the field and their experiences, sitting in caves in Horseshoe canyons or san juan rivers or wherever the hell they are.
Paul.
Thanks Paul!
I appreciate your discussion and support and great recommendation!
Regarding the location of the Ghost Panel and comments asserting it is elsewhere (San Juan River) ...hmmm well I was trying to not be cruel to the commentor who asserted that the panel was actually on the San Juan river...I was trying to be a bit whimsical by facetiously apologizing for myself, various museums, universities, archaeologists, etc that have studied the panel for decades and decades (as if they/we had been going to the wrong place all this time...) and I'm not sure I did it very well...! The point is that this panel is extremely well known....Canyonlands National Park literally has made a "detached unit"...a section of the park not attached to the rest of the park precisely in order to preserve this panel and the few others nearby... There is a fairly famous mural painting(s) of the Great Gallery by "Fawcett" (sp?) made during the Great Depression that will be a centerpiece of the entry to the new building being constructed for the Utah Museum of Natural History. Moab artist Eric Trenbeath of the Framed Image Fine Art Gallery in Moab (
http://www.framedimagemoab.com/) paints it extensively and his painting of the Ghost Panel is used as the signature piece/logo for the Moab Arts home page (
http://www.moabarts.com/index.html)...someone needs to tell him he's been going to the wrong place!
so when comments come in (with a rather hostile tone btw) that assert "this is a hoax! this isn't even in Canyonlands!" that assertion is so laughable.... it is best not to be too cruel to the commentor. It feels kinda like the "The moon landing was a hoax!" assertion. So I guess what i'm saying is I wasn't actually admitting to being wrong...I meant to be facetious and I did it poorly.
for Ghost Panel location skeptics - here is a link of image collections from the official Canyonlands NP site - see "Great Gallery"
http://www.nps.gov/cany/photosmultimedi ... allery.htm
My hunch is thought that even in the face of official documentation and hundreds if not thousands of similar nighttime images now possible due to advances in camera technology that some will want to ignore/dismiss that evidence and continue to launch provocative and hostile messages across the internet. (any bets?) That's ok - it's a forum for free discussion and I suppose that's part of the action. Those particular comments only embarrassed the originator.
Paul Thanks again for your input and recommendation! ...and the link to the short story area! I will do that! I do wish to share what the feelings are like as the sun sets and dusk settles in and those charged moments while you're waiting to see just exactly where the Milky Way is coming out and how well does it frame into the shot (my planisphere vs compass reading has proven to not always be the most skilled during daylight). At that elevation and low level of light pollution (and no Moon) and when I'm hiking back to the vehicle and if I let my eyes adjust well to the darkness I have seen my shadow on the ground from the Milky Way. It is like this most amazing and meaningful of all movies or shows is playing for free every clear dark night...it makes your heart beat and I'm always a little amazed that there aren't thousands of people out witnessing it and gazing upwards! But there are those who live at sea level in large cities who do not know how visible it can be at night or that it is even a feature of the night sky to the naked eye. ...uhh whoops i'm getting carried away..i'll save it for input to the link you showed me!
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:21 pm
by bystander
Bret
I, for one, understood your answer and appreciated the humor in it. I'm somewhat surprised it wasn't recognized for what it was, although I probably shouldn't be. I was preparing an explanation, but I see you beat me to it. I wouldn't worry about johndmura. It amazes me how many people think they know more about a picture than the person who took it, even with supporting documentation.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:26 pm
by wonderboy
Now that you pointed it out, you were clearly being sarcastic, i was looking at the google results thinking, "what is this guy on about, its clearly the right place in the caption" anyway, good luck tonight or tommorow evening (wherever you are) if your our trying to photograph more amazing sites.
Paul.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:10 pm
by neufer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haibao
<<Haibao (海寶), meaning "jewel of the sea", is the mascot of Expo 2010, in Shanghai, China.
"Hai (海)" means the sea in Chinese, and "Bao (宝,寶)" means the treasure.
Its figure is in the shape of the Chinese character "人" (meaning human)
![Image](http://www.slawcio.com/slawek%201.jpg)
>>
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:28 pm
by Bret Webster
neufer you amaze me. Any insights for the Chinese character for "desert"...so to make "jewel of the desert"?
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:40 pm
by bystander
沙漠
沙漠寶
![Question :?:](./images/smilies/icon_question.gif)
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:20 pm
by Bret Webster
bystander wrote:沙漠
沙漠寶
![Question :?:](./images/smilies/icon_question.gif)
Got it! Very cool - Thanks!
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:24 pm
by neufer
[quote="bystander"]沙漠
沙漠寶
[/quote]
I think we pretty much know now who has been out in Utah making petroglyphs.
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:30 pm
by Bret Webster
neufer wrote:[quote="bystander"]沙漠
沙漠寶 ![Question :?:](./images/smilies/icon_question.gif)
I think we pretty much know now who has been out in Utah making petroglyphs.[/quote]
Ancient Ghost Gumby
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 7:35 pm
by Beyond
HHHMMMMmmmm........Gumby
![Question :?:](./images/smilies/icon_question.gif)
Chinese Characters
![Question :?:](./images/smilies/icon_question.gif)
..........I think you're ALL a bunch of Characters
Now----about this light from the milky Way - is't it true that our human eyes can only see the small part of visible light in the middle of the spectrum, so most of the light in the milky way goes unnoticed
Well then, we humans seem to be about the same as a one-eyed bat without his Echo system
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
so we must be missing most of what goes on in our lovely Milky Way. No wonder we do not understand very much about anything. The EYES have it, but we do not have the eyes.
Alas poor Yorlick, we can hardly see ya
![Crying or Very sad :cry:](./images/smilies/icon_cry.gif)
Re: APOD: Milky Way Over Ancient Ghost Panel (2010 May 19)
Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:27 pm
by neufer
beyond wrote:
Now----about this light from the milky Way - is't it true that our human eyes can only see the small part of visible light in the middle of the spectrum, so most of the light in the milky way goes unnoticed
Our eyes are fairly well attuned to the output from the sun
(especially the output which penetrates down through our atmosphere):
It would probably be useful to also see in the infrared atmospheric window
between 5 μm and 30 μm like some snakes and Predator
(Seeing in the radio window between 3 cm and 3 m might be scientifically useful.)
beyond wrote:Well then, we humans seem to be about the same as a one-eyed bat without his Echo system
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
so we must be missing most of what goes on in our lovely Milky Way. No wonder we do not understand very much about anything. The EYES have it, but we do not have the eyes.
Alas poor Yorlick, we can hardly see ya
![Crying or Very sad :cry:](./images/smilies/icon_cry.gif)
That's one reason why many of us prefer to use instruments and to ground astronauts.
- ________ Scientific American JUNE 1960
"Putting a man in space is a stunt: the man can do no more
than an instrument, in fact can do less." So said Vannevar Bush,
chairman of the Board of Governors of the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, in a statement to the House Committee on Science and
Astronautics. "There are far more serious things to do than to indulge
in stunts. As yet the American people do not understand the
distinctions, and we in this country are prone to rush, for a time, at
any new thing. I do not discard completely the value of demonstrating
to the world our skills. Nor do I undervalue the effect on morale of
the spectacular. But the present hullabaloo on the propaganda aspects
of the program leaves me entirely cool."