moon, Mars out of reach

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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by apodman » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:22 pm

THX1138 wrote:None the less I personally agree that our present mode of transportation, for lack of a more fitting word “sucks “ Dragging our feet from moon to planets and or etc at a whopping 25,000 mph is not going to cut it boys. Maybe in 10 or 20 years someone will have perfected any one of a number of different propulsion techniques that are currently being envisioned, I certainly hope so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lJMpzbOA4 wrote:And you can fly high as a kite if you want to
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How life began, will we find out?
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neufer
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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by neufer » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:32 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:There is one good thing to be gained from a permanent presence on the moon...a Launch base that enters space at vastly greater speeds that could be gained by leaving a gravity well 1/6th that of Earth (unfortunately, everything needed would likely require boosting out of Earth's gravity well first before lunar assembly could occur)
The lunar surface gravity is 1/6th that of Earth but the gravity well is less.

The lunar escape velocity is 2.38 km/s after which the remaining escape velocity
from earth orbit is 0.42 km/s for a total escape velocity is 2.8 km/s.

This is 1/4 the earth escape velocity and equivalent to 1/16th the potential well.

(There is also no atmosphere to plow through.)

A solar powered mass driver might work well with no fuel required:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver wrote:
<<A mass driver or electromagnetic catapult is a proposed method of non-rocket spacelaunch that would use a linear motor to accelerate and catapult payloads up to high speeds. All existing and contemplated mass drivers use coils of wire energized by electricity to make electromagnets. Sequential firing of a row of electromagnets accelerates the payload along a path. After leaving the path, the payload continues to move due to inertia.

A mass driver is essentially a coilgun that magnetically accelerates a package consisting of a magnetisable holder containing a payload. Once the payload has been accelerated, the two separate, and the holder is slowed and recycled for another payload.

Mass drivers can be used to propel spacecraft in two different ways: A large, ground-based mass driver could be used to launch spacecraft away from the Earth or another planet. A spacecraft could have a mass driver on board, flinging large pieces of material into space to propel itself. A hybrid design is also possible (see coilgun, railgun, or helical railgun).

Generally speaking, mass drivers are practical for small objects at a few kilometers per second; for example 1 kg at 2.5km/s. Heavier objects go proportionally more slowly; and lighter objects may be projected at 20km/s or more. The limits are generally the cost of the silicon to switch the current and the cost of the power supply and temporary energy storage for it. However, energy can be stored inductively in superconducting coils. A 1 km long mass driver made of superconducting coils can accelerate a 20kg vehicle to 10.5 km/s at a conversion efficiency of 80%, and average acceleration of 5,600 gee. Even so, Earth-based Mass drivers for propelling one-tonne vehicles to orbit are unlikely to be cost effective in the near future.

The Earth's strong gravity and thick atmosphere make such an installation difficult, so many proposals have been put forward to install mass drivers on the moon where the lower gravity and lack of atmosphere significantly reduce the required velocity to reach lunar orbit.

Most serious mass driver designs use superconducting coils to achieve reasonable energetic efficiency (approximately 50%). The best known performance occurs with an aluminum coil as the payload. The coils of the mass-driver induce eddy-currents in the payload's coil, and then act on the resulting magnetic field. There are two sections of a mass-driver. The maximum acceleration part spaces the coils at constant distances, and synchronize the coil currents to the bucket. In this section, the acceleration increases as the velocity increases, up to the maximum that the bucket can take. After that, the constant acceleration region begins. This region spaces the coils at increasing distances to give a fixed amount of velocity increase per unit of time.

In this mode, the major proposal for use of mass-drivers was to transport lunar surface material to space habitats so that it could be processed using solar energy. The Space Studies Institute showed that this application was reasonably practical. In the prototypes, the payload would be held in a bucket and then released, so that the bucket can be decelerated and reused. A disposable bucket, on the other hand, would avail acceleration along the whole track.>>
Last edited by neufer on Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by bystander » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:32 pm

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http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080309.html

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THX1138
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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by THX1138 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:40 am

BMAONE23
How much more velocity “ round about “ would a moon based launch be able to attain?
The whole less gravity thing never occurred to me “ and sadly, no surprise there “ But are we talking like double or more of what we are doing now?
17,500 = 35,000 or ?

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neufer
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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by neufer » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:27 pm

THX1138 wrote:BMAONE23
How much more velocity “ round about “ would a moon based launch be able to attain?
The whole less gravity thing never occurred to me “ and sadly, no surprise there “ But are we talking like double or more of what we are doing now?
17,500 = 35,000 or ?
An unmanned ion rocket ejected with a lunar mass driver could easily be made to go hundreds of kilometers per second given time.

The main object is usually to maximize the payload (and/or dispense with booster rockets) rather than maximize the velocity.
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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by THX1138 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:55 pm

ion rocket ejected with a lunar mass driver. What exactly is the name of the medication that you......
And hundreds of kilometers per second, seems to me that's changing what would be a very long drive to mars with our rocket tech, into a lifetime of driving to reach that rock.
Ion propulsion...Ok I
on rocket ???? lunar mass driver ????? A, ok, sure thing.
Am I out of bounds here or is this guy / stuff on the real. help me out here somebody

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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by rstevenson » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:49 pm

An ion rocket (aka, plasma engine) has been used on at least 8 different space missions, so far. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_rocket

A mass driver is a well understood method of propelling masses along a rail to move them quickly from point A to point B. Not sure if it's ever been used for more than laboratory tests here on earth, because the mass gets moving VERY quickly and can get somewhat overheated in an atmosphere. But it would be an excellent way to launch things from airless moons. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by Dr. Morbius » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:02 am

Seems to me some of us 'can't see the forest for the trees' here. After all, the staggering number of inventions, innovations, improvements, let alone general raising of the 'collective conciousness' (humanity's fist look back at our 'blue marble' in space), ought to be more than enough reason to continue manned space flight to the moon, mars, the asteroids, and any where else we damn well please to go.

Someone told me back in the 70's that every $1 that was sunk into Apollo and NASA in general, generated $11 for the economy (per the above mentioned innovations). So many other government programs do nothing but suck tax payer's money like a proverbial black hole (military, homeland security, etc.)

And by the way, you don't need a conspiracy theory to understand why the distribution of wealth is so lop-sided on this here planet!

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Re: moon, Mars out of reach

Post by Orca » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:45 pm

The rail gun idea is interesting; the trouble is the acceleration. Perhaps a probe could be designed to withstand 5600 g's but astronauts would be turned into red goo in the back of the space ship. Then there's the power...how do you produce that much power on the moon? Perhaps one day solar tech will be much more efficient...

There's also the idea of using a rail gun as propulsion once a ship is in space...basically hucking objects out the back of the ship at high speed. But then, making enough power to run a large rail gun on a ship would be even harder than a moon base with acres of solar panels.

Ion engines make the most sense right now for propulsion; just not for lift off. You're not escaping the gravity well of anything you couldn't jump off of (ie a tiny asteroid).

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