Re: Moons of Jupiter (7/14/09)
Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:50 pm
Yes, Anne, thank you. Nice picture!
And thanks to others here for clearing up my confusion.
And thanks to others here for clearing up my confusion.
APOD and General Astronomy Discussion Forum
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They would have to be reflecting telescopes unless you unstop the bottoms of the pipes. Unstopping the pipes would yield 1x magnification like Jack Horkheimer's toilet paper roll. For greater magnification by refraction you would need to stop both ends with lenses, and that would make an instrument you could play without disturbing the neighbors - or yourself. Instead of a bunch of miniature telescopes, consider marketing a multi-nocular to mutants. If you ran into your neighbor while trying to look simultaneously through five or more lenses with only two eyes, you could call it a collide-o-scope.Frenchy wrote:the pan flute ... may have also doubled as a bunch of miniature telescopes.
I think it fair to say that man had little spare time to contemplate the heavens until he developed agriculture.apodman wrote:They would have to be reflecting telescopes unless you unstop the bottoms of the pipes. Unstopping the pipes would yield 1x magnification. For greater magnification by refraction you would need to stop both ends with lenses, and that would make an instrument you could play without disturbing the neighbors - or yourself. Instead of a bunch of miniature telescopes, consider marketing a multi-nocular to mutants.Frenchy wrote:I suspect humanity has been observing [the Galilean moons] as long as the pan flute as been around. It may have also doubled as a bunch of miniature telescopes.
I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. Even pre-agricultural societies must have found benefit in recognizing seasonal patterns. And from a purely spiritual standpoint, it's hard to believe that solstices went unrecognized, nor the connection between lunar cycles and fertility. I'd be very surprised if very early man didn't study the night sky, and know it well.neufer wrote:I think it fair to say that man had little spare time to contemplate the heavens until he developed agriculture.
A relatively unchanging sky was basically ignored by both men & other animals because it posed no threat & provided little benefit.
I don't see any indication of it in any cave painting.Chris Peterson wrote:I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. Even pre-agricultural societies must have found benefit in recognizing seasonal patterns. And from a purely spiritual standpoint, it's hard to believe that solstices went unrecognized, nor the connection between lunar cycles and fertility. I'd be very surprised if very early man didn't study the night sky, and know it well.neufer wrote:I think it fair to say that man had little spare time to contemplate the heavens until he developed agriculture.
A relatively unchanging sky was basically ignored by both men & other animals because it posed no threat & provided little benefit.
While there is some rock art that may have astronomical significance, I don't think it really matters. Rock art pretty clearly represents only a few ancient cultures (using the term loosely), and within them, only a fraction of their cultural content (we don't see much in the way of tools, for instance). Neither do we see much that could be interpreted as spiritual or religious, even though there is good evidence that very ancient cultures had something like religious practices.neufer wrote:I don't see any indication of it in any cave painting.
Well, then, there are 20th century anthropological studies of existing primitive hunter gatherer tribes. Except for the Dogons (who basically assimilated outside astronomical culture) there really isn't a lot of astronomy or astrology there. Nighttime was simply too dangerous to be outside much; especially when there was sex, drugs, sleep and somewhat more instructive stories about animals to be had safely with shelters (including caves & igloos). Even early agriculture was more conducive to Frazer's _Golden Bough_ vegetative-god children of the corn type stories than to star lore.Chris Peterson wrote:While there is some rock art that may have astronomical significance, I don't think it really matters. Rock art pretty clearly represents only a few ancient cultures (using the term loosely), and within them, only a fraction of their cultural content (we don't see much in the way of tools, for instance). Neither do we see much that could be interpreted as spiritual or religious, even though there is good evidence that very ancient cultures had something like religious practices.neufer wrote:I don't see any indication of it in any cave painting.
I don't find the absence of astronomical imagery in cave paintings to be a very convincing argument against ancient people having astronomical knowledge, and astrological beliefs.
Which tribes? There is a rich record of cultures with astronomical traditions: Inuit (hunter), Polynesians (semi-agricultural and hunter-gatherer), North American Indian (semi-agricultural and hunter-gatherer), Central American Indian (agricultural, but with limited seasonal influence), Australian Aboriginal (hunter-gatherer), and others. You should not dismiss the Dogon people's (agricultural, with limited seasonal influence) astronomy, either. Their astronomical mythology predates European or Islamic contact; it is the very existence of that mythology that resulted in their eagerness to appropriate outside knowledge and incorporate it into that belief system.neufer wrote:Well, then, there are 20th century anthropological studies of existing primitive hunter gatherer tribes. Except for the Dogons (who basically assimilated outside astronomical culture) there really isn't a lot of astronomy or astrology there. Nighttime was simply too dangerous to be outside much...
"Rich" record...compared to WHAT?Chris Peterson wrote:Which tribes? There is a rich record of cultures with astronomical traditions: Inuit (hunter), Polynesians (semi-agricultural and hunter-gatherer), North American Indian (semi-agricultural and hunter-gatherer), Central American Indian (agricultural, but with limited seasonal influence), Australian Aboriginal (hunter-gatherer), and others. You should not dismiss the Dogon people's (agricultural, with limited seasonal influence) astronomy, either. Their astronomical mythology predates European or Islamic contact; it is the very existence of that mythology that resulted in their eagerness to appropriate outside knowledge and incorporate it into that belief system.neufer wrote:Well, then, there are 20th century anthropological studies of existing primitive hunter gatherer tribes. Except for the Dogons (who basically assimilated outside astronomical culture) there really isn't a lot of astronomy or astrology there. Nighttime was simply too dangerous to be outside much...
I don't think so. Ancient cultures, for the most part, recorded very little. Most didn't even have mechanisms for recording things.neufer wrote:If they were common the first known star map would be older than a mere 14 centuries.
neufer wrote:If they were common the first known star map would be older than a mere 14 centuries.
It's a bit tricky, because it depends on how you define "star map". There are unambiguous and reasonably accurate maps of the night sky dating back more than 2000 years in both China and Egypt. There is at least one unambiguous but marginally accurate map dating back 3500 years to Bronze Age Germany. And there are ambiguous artifacts with possible astronomical significance dating back more than 30,000 years, also in Europe. There are references to the stars and astronomical events dating back as far as we have written records.mark swain wrote:You may wanna look up your first known star map... Its a Tad older than you think...
People took note of the sun & moon (and, on occasion, the planets) and were temporarily scared of eclipses & comets (and, on occasion, supernova) but their culture (like ours today) concentrated heavily on active local things like humans, animals, plants, floods, etc. . Astronomy has almost always been a quaint sideline interest for a few folks with spare time or their hands.Chris Peterson wrote:I don't think so. Ancient cultures, for the most part, recorded very little. Most didn't even have mechanisms for recording things.neufer wrote:If they were common the first known star map would be older than a mere 14 centuries.
My own readings in archaeoastronomy (which are extensive) lead me to the conclusion that fascination with the night sky is an inherent property of being human (like engineering, or creating art). I think it is found in all peoples and all cultures, and probably has been for tens of thousands of years. I think that cultures that didn't identify and define constellations, create star-based mythology, make note of monthly and seasonal changes, and of unexpected events (eclipses, comets, meteors) must have been rare, or even non-existent.
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsi ... nca3b.htmlneufer wrote:but their culture (like ours today) concentrated heavily on active local things like humans, animals, plants, floods, etc. . Astronomy has almost always been a quaint sideline interest for a few folks with spare time or their hands.
I don't think we can say with certainty just how strong a role the sky played in most ancient cultures. This discussion came from your earlier assertion:neufer wrote:People took note of the sun & moon (and, on occasion, the planets) and were temporarily scared of eclipses & comets (and, on occasion, supernova) but their culture (like ours today) concentrated heavily on active local things like humans, animals, plants, floods, etc. . Astronomy has almost always been a quaint sideline interest for a few folks with spare time or their hands.
I think that is inaccurate. I think that people certainly had time to contemplate the sky, and that they had motivation to do so. Survival depended on as complete an understanding of nature and their environment as they could develop. The patterns in the sky, and in the movement of the sky, would have had both practical (calendrical, hunting, gathering) uses, and also astrological uses (which all cultures seem to have perceived as practical).neufer wrote:I think it fair to say that man had little spare time to contemplate the heavens until he developed agriculture.
A relatively unchanging sky was basically ignored by both men & other animals because it posed no threat & provided little benefit.
Or consult an anthropologist. But then, if an anthropologist were lurking here, they wouldn't want to contaminate their research by actually communicating with their subjects.Chris Peterson wrote:... We'll probably just have to agree to disagree.
Even that would be of questionable value, since anthropologists have no experience with several thousand year old cultures, and only the most limited data on modern primitive societies.rstevenson wrote:Or consult an anthropologist.
A) My remark was intended as light humour, and not to be taken too seriously.Chris Peterson wrote:Even that would be of questionable value, since anthropologists have no experience with several thousand year old cultures, and only the most limited data on modern primitive societies.rstevenson wrote:Or consult an anthropologist.
I did not find the word Loco, very funny. sorryrstevenson wrote:A) My remark was intended as light humour, and not to be taken too seriously.
I know.rstevenson wrote:A) My remark was intended as light humour, and not to be taken too seriously.
Some might. However, as a science, anthropology is really not on the same level as astronomy. In many respects, it isn't science at all. I gave a talk at an archaeology conference a few years ago, comparing astronomy and archaeology in an explanation of why archaeologists have a hard time dealing with archaeoastronomy. The main point was that archaeologists aren't really scientists. It didn't seem to offend many: my paper is still used in a University of Arizona archaeology class, and I received many positive comments from archaeologists over the course of the conference. Anthropology, like archaeology, is mainly a social science, and honest social scientists realize that the "science" they practice is rarely that.B) Nevertheless, I imagine that anthropologists would take considerable exception to your assessment of their experience and knowledge. Surely, as an astronomer with an interest in archaeoastronomy, you can at least accept as a possibility an anthropologist with an interest, indeed a specialty, in early cultures. After all, if they are to understand modern cultures via observation, they need some sort of baseline data.
There are many surviving texts much older than 14 centuries.apodman wrote:There is probably a difference between the oldest surviving star map and the first one. The first one was probably scratched in the dirt and at best only lasted until the next rain.
apodman wrote:Where I was schooled they taught some courses in cultural anthropology (which deals with the present) and some in historical anthropology (which deals with the past). The subjects are related but the research methods are necessarily different. In the case of American aborigines, we have an arguably advanced stone age culture living concurrently with more modern cultures. This provides an opportunity to infer historical anthropological ideas from the study of a living culture.