Re: Black Holes
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:45 am
Chris L. Petersen wrote:
C.L. Petersen quoted noblackhole: "The theory is demonstrably false - neither General Relativity nor Newton's theory predict them (the Michell-Laplace dark body is not a black hole). Schwarzschild's actual solution forbids black holes."
C. L. Petersen responded: "Here we have factual errors again."
However, C. L. Petersen has not dealt with the facts at all. First, the theoretical Michell-Laplace dark body does not possess the alleged signatures of a black hole, and so it is not a black hole. Second, Schwarzschild's solution does indeed forbid black holes, but C. Petersen has persistently ignored that fact, and that is unscientific. I reiterate yet again that it is easily verified that Schwarzschild's actual solution, which is not that which is attributed to him by proponents of the black hole, forbids black holes. Yet again, here is Schwarzschild's actual paper:
http://www.sjcrothers.plasmaresources.c ... schild.pdf
C. L. Petersen has so far failed to even acknowledge that "Schwarzschild's solution" is not Schwarzschild's solution. One can only wonder why, given that the irrefutable evidence has been adduced here several times. Ignoring scientific facts is not scientific. Contrary to C. L. Petersen's unsubstantiated assertion, I have not committed factual errors. Mr. Petersen, please provide your proof that Schwarzschild's solution does not forbid black holes and your proof that the Michell-Laplace dark body is some kind of black hole. Mr. Petersen has ignored the fact, reported in my previous post, that it is on the one hand claimed by the proponents of the black hole that black holes have an escape velocity c (in vacuum) and on the other hand that nothing, including light, can even leave the alleged black hole. That these claims are contradictory is plain.
C. L. Petersen quoted noblackhole thus: "Since the black hole is a false theoretical entity it does not exist. It is indeed a figment of the imagination. Scientifically, it is nonsense to say that a false theoretical entity actually exists."
C. L. Petersen responded: "Here we have a highly non-scientific statement, apparently from somebody who doesn't understand science. There is no such thing as a "false theoretical entity". Even if you prefer to emphasize theories that propose alternate explanations for black holes, perfectly good theories also support their existence. If you are scientifically honest, the farthest you can go is to state that you prefer the theories that support alternate explanations for our observations. Any statement of absolute certainty (black holes are "a figment of the imagination") immediately tells us we are dealing with a non-scientist or a pseudoscientist, and thus our BS filters should all be pegged."
But C. L. Petersen is again wrong. There is such a thing as a false theoretical entity. If a theory is alleged to predict something and it is however shown that the reasoning leading to that theoretical entity is fatally flawed, then the said theoretical entity is inconsistent with the theory that is alleged to predict it and so is a false theoretical entity - it does not exist. The black hole is such an entity, and so it is indeed a figment of the imagination. There is no theory that predicts black holes - General Relativity and Newton's theory of gravitational do not predict black holes. Schwarzschild's actual solution forbids black holes (as his actual paper irrefutably testifies) and the theoretical Michell-Laplace dark body is not a black hole (the black hole is allegedly predicted by General Relativity). The black hole has been conjured up by erroneous mathematics and misapplication of physical principles, from a corruption of Schwarzschild's solution, and is thereby inconsistent with General Relativity.
C. L. Petersen wrote: "There is no reason that physical singularities cannot exist. They may, or they may not; current theory is not advanced enough to make that determination. A physical singularity and a mathematical singularity are not the same thing."
This is not correct. The Theory of Relativity forbids the alleged infinitely dense point-mass singularity that the relativists routinely claim resides at the heart of a black hole (at the 'origin' of their coordinates). However, General Relativity and Special Relativity must necessarily be consistent with one another. Special Relativity forbids infinite density, and so it does not matter how General Relativity is alleged to form an infinite density, infinite density cannot be reconciled with Special Relativity, and so General Relativity necessarily forbids infinite density, and hence forbids the infinitely dense point-mass singularity of the alleged black hole, which, according to the relativists, is produced by irresistible gravitational collapse (an alleged phenomenon for which there is not one iota of physical evidence).
C. L. Petersen speaks often of scientific honesty. Surely it is scientific honesty to examine the evidence and acknowledge the evidence. Yet he has not done so in relation to Schwarzschild's solution and he has not addressed the contradictory claims related to escape velocity of a black hole that are maintained by the proponents of the black hole.
Now I also note that C. L. Petersen has once again resorted to vilification and insult, apparently immune from moderator intervention. Here again is what C. L. Petersen wrote: "Here we have a highly non-scientific statement, apparently from somebody who doesn't understand science. ... Any statement of absolute certainty (black holes are "a figment of the imagination") immediately tells us we are dealing with a non-scientist or a pseudoscientist, and thus our BS filters should all be pegged." These remarks are far from scientific - just plain ridicule, bereft of anything sober or constructive. I note the following rule of this forum:
"4. Be constructive, be polite, be nice, don't attack people, don't use language that would get this forum blacklisted by 'family friendly' filtering software such as is used in many libraries, respect others' privacy, respect copyrights, etc … the usual things that make for a welcoming and successful internet discussion forum."
C.L. Petersen quoted noblackhole: "The theory is demonstrably false - neither General Relativity nor Newton's theory predict them (the Michell-Laplace dark body is not a black hole). Schwarzschild's actual solution forbids black holes."
C. L. Petersen responded: "Here we have factual errors again."
However, C. L. Petersen has not dealt with the facts at all. First, the theoretical Michell-Laplace dark body does not possess the alleged signatures of a black hole, and so it is not a black hole. Second, Schwarzschild's solution does indeed forbid black holes, but C. Petersen has persistently ignored that fact, and that is unscientific. I reiterate yet again that it is easily verified that Schwarzschild's actual solution, which is not that which is attributed to him by proponents of the black hole, forbids black holes. Yet again, here is Schwarzschild's actual paper:
http://www.sjcrothers.plasmaresources.c ... schild.pdf
C. L. Petersen has so far failed to even acknowledge that "Schwarzschild's solution" is not Schwarzschild's solution. One can only wonder why, given that the irrefutable evidence has been adduced here several times. Ignoring scientific facts is not scientific. Contrary to C. L. Petersen's unsubstantiated assertion, I have not committed factual errors. Mr. Petersen, please provide your proof that Schwarzschild's solution does not forbid black holes and your proof that the Michell-Laplace dark body is some kind of black hole. Mr. Petersen has ignored the fact, reported in my previous post, that it is on the one hand claimed by the proponents of the black hole that black holes have an escape velocity c (in vacuum) and on the other hand that nothing, including light, can even leave the alleged black hole. That these claims are contradictory is plain.
C. L. Petersen quoted noblackhole thus: "Since the black hole is a false theoretical entity it does not exist. It is indeed a figment of the imagination. Scientifically, it is nonsense to say that a false theoretical entity actually exists."
C. L. Petersen responded: "Here we have a highly non-scientific statement, apparently from somebody who doesn't understand science. There is no such thing as a "false theoretical entity". Even if you prefer to emphasize theories that propose alternate explanations for black holes, perfectly good theories also support their existence. If you are scientifically honest, the farthest you can go is to state that you prefer the theories that support alternate explanations for our observations. Any statement of absolute certainty (black holes are "a figment of the imagination") immediately tells us we are dealing with a non-scientist or a pseudoscientist, and thus our BS filters should all be pegged."
But C. L. Petersen is again wrong. There is such a thing as a false theoretical entity. If a theory is alleged to predict something and it is however shown that the reasoning leading to that theoretical entity is fatally flawed, then the said theoretical entity is inconsistent with the theory that is alleged to predict it and so is a false theoretical entity - it does not exist. The black hole is such an entity, and so it is indeed a figment of the imagination. There is no theory that predicts black holes - General Relativity and Newton's theory of gravitational do not predict black holes. Schwarzschild's actual solution forbids black holes (as his actual paper irrefutably testifies) and the theoretical Michell-Laplace dark body is not a black hole (the black hole is allegedly predicted by General Relativity). The black hole has been conjured up by erroneous mathematics and misapplication of physical principles, from a corruption of Schwarzschild's solution, and is thereby inconsistent with General Relativity.
C. L. Petersen wrote: "There is no reason that physical singularities cannot exist. They may, or they may not; current theory is not advanced enough to make that determination. A physical singularity and a mathematical singularity are not the same thing."
This is not correct. The Theory of Relativity forbids the alleged infinitely dense point-mass singularity that the relativists routinely claim resides at the heart of a black hole (at the 'origin' of their coordinates). However, General Relativity and Special Relativity must necessarily be consistent with one another. Special Relativity forbids infinite density, and so it does not matter how General Relativity is alleged to form an infinite density, infinite density cannot be reconciled with Special Relativity, and so General Relativity necessarily forbids infinite density, and hence forbids the infinitely dense point-mass singularity of the alleged black hole, which, according to the relativists, is produced by irresistible gravitational collapse (an alleged phenomenon for which there is not one iota of physical evidence).
C. L. Petersen speaks often of scientific honesty. Surely it is scientific honesty to examine the evidence and acknowledge the evidence. Yet he has not done so in relation to Schwarzschild's solution and he has not addressed the contradictory claims related to escape velocity of a black hole that are maintained by the proponents of the black hole.
Now I also note that C. L. Petersen has once again resorted to vilification and insult, apparently immune from moderator intervention. Here again is what C. L. Petersen wrote: "Here we have a highly non-scientific statement, apparently from somebody who doesn't understand science. ... Any statement of absolute certainty (black holes are "a figment of the imagination") immediately tells us we are dealing with a non-scientist or a pseudoscientist, and thus our BS filters should all be pegged." These remarks are far from scientific - just plain ridicule, bereft of anything sober or constructive. I note the following rule of this forum:
"4. Be constructive, be polite, be nice, don't attack people, don't use language that would get this forum blacklisted by 'family friendly' filtering software such as is used in many libraries, respect others' privacy, respect copyrights, etc … the usual things that make for a welcoming and successful internet discussion forum."