Speed of light

[iknownothing]

Thanks everyone.

[makc]

still, in balloon metaphor with even slightly assymmetric balloon, there would be a point closest to its center.

[aristarchusinexile]

This is discussed a lot, but it is not easy for everyone to visualize, so keep asking.

Back to the balloon metaphor I just used in another thread, the universe is like the surface of an expanding balloon. The big bang can't be located anywhere on the surface of the balloon. But it was at every point on the surface of the balloon when the balloon's size was zero and the balloon was only one point. Now the only direction to look for the big bang is not in any particular space direction but back in time.

I'm sure someone will provide more detail or a better explanation.

But a balloon has a surface and an interior. A singularity, from what I have read, has neither. Or am I wrong? Not that it matters, as IMOPO everything was made from nothing, according to (I hope I'm not wearing out his name) Pascual Jordan.

[aristarchusinexile]

A better example would be a balloon with points on its surface.

As you know, I have a fine-point marker that draws very tiny galaxies. I could also extend the metaphor by arguing that the ink in my markers dries hard and solid, preventing the small marked areas on the balloon from expanding. But that would be more detail than I wanted to write.

Well, if the hard ink prevented the balloon beneath the ink from expanding, that would cause fractures at the border of the ink-balloon boundaries. Might I suggest, Apodman, that you use a more benevolent ink before you create a rupture in the universe which would disrupt our conversations?

[Qev]

But a balloon has a surface and an interior. A singularity, from what I have read, has neither. Or am I wrong? Not that it matters, as IMOPO everything was made from nothing, according to (I hope I'm not wearing out his name) Pascual Jordan.

It's good to bear in mind that the balloon metaphor is just that, a metaphor, and not a model. You could encompass the interior and exterior of the balloon in the analogy by calling the interior 'the past' and the exterior 'the future', which makes the normal to the surface of the balloon the 'time direction'.

[bystander]

It's good to bear in mind that the balloon metaphor is just that, a metaphor, and not a model. You could encompass the interior and exterior of the balloon in the analogy by calling the interior 'the past' and the exterior 'the future', which makes the normal to the surface of the balloon the 'time direction'.

And it is absolutely essential that you keep in mind, only the surface of the balloon is the 2d model of the 3d universe.

Keep blowing up the balloon and you can model the Big Rip

[aristarchusinexile]

Keep blowing up the balloon and you can model the Big Rip

I can do that just by bending over far enough.

[Chris Peterson]

still, in balloon metaphor with even slightly assymmetric balloon, there would be a point closest to its center.

Yes, but that center is outside the spatial dimensions of the balloon universe. The surface of the balloon still has no center. When you extend the analogy to our universe, it says that there is no point in three dimensional space that is the center. It is true that some places in 3D space may be closer to the 4D center - that's a question of the shape of the Universe, and remains open to study.

[Zargon]

Would it be that the big bang is just arriving at some point now in space as we read and write this?

The energy field I would say is opposite in direction from where it started. Would need to look for a different type of energy field than what we currently know?

Look at that. With your question I asked 2 more..

Have a good day.

Zargon.

[Chris Peterson]

Would it be that the big bang is just arriving at some point now in space as we read and write this?

The BB can't arrive anywhere. It was an event which is passed. It is the same distance from everywhere in the Universe (that "distance" being in the time direction).

[harry]

G'day from theland of ozz

It's funny that everything is expanding from Earth.

Why is this so?

[Chris Peterson]

It's funny that everything is expanding from Earth.

It would be odd if it didn't appear so. Everything is expanding from everywhere. Were it otherwise, that would mean a universe with preferential locations- very different than we observe.

[makc]

It was an event which is passed.

Yeah but what about 2nd coming prophecies? What if one day we'll see stuff appearing in some distant corner of Universe out of nowhere? Would be something interesting to observe.

[bystander]

It's funny that everything is expanding from Earth. Why is this so?

Obviously, Earth is the center of the universe.

[Chris Peterson]

It's funny that everything is expanding from Earth. Why is this so?

Obviously, Earth is the center of the universe.

From a 3D perspective, that's completely true. Of course, from a 3D perspective every point is the center of the Universe.

[bystander]

It's funny that everything is expanding from Earth. Why is this so?

Obviously, Earth is the center of the universe.

From a 3D perspective, that's completely true. Of course, from a 3D perspective every point is the center of the Universe.

Ahh, Chris, I knew you were going to say that. I remember this conversation from before.

[neufer]

Of course, from a 3D perspective every point is the center of the Universe.

Ch. 1: Introductory Remarks on the Importance of Orthodoxy

Nothing more strangely indicates an enormous and silent evil of modern society than the extraordinary use which is made nowadays of the word "orthodox." In former days the heretic was proud of not being a heretic. It was the kingdoms of the world and the police and the judges who were heretics. He was orthodox. He had no pride in having rebelled against them; they had rebelled against him. The armies with their cruel security, the kings with their cold faces, the decorous processes of State, the reasonable processes of law--all these like sheep had gone astray. The man was proud of being orthodox, was proud of being right. If he stood alone in a howling wilderness he was more than a man; he was a church.

He was the centre of the universe; it was round him that the stars swung. All the tortures torn out of forgotten hells could not make him admit that he was heretical. But a few modern phrases have made him boast of it. He says, with a conscious laugh, "I suppose I am very heretical," and looks round for applause. The word "heresy" not only means no longer being wrong; it practically means being clear-headed and courageous. The word "orthodoxy" not only no longer means being right; it practically means being wrong. All this can mean one thing, and one thing only. It means that people care less for whether they are philosophically right. For obviously a man ought to confess himself crazy before he confesses himself heretical. The Bohemian, with a red tie, ought to pique himself on his orthodoxy. The dynamiter, laying a bomb, ought to feel that, whatever else he is, at least he is orthodox.

------------------------------------------
Lord Byron's _MANFRED_ Act I Scene I

MANFRED alone.—Scene, a Gothic Gallery. Time, Midnight.

MANFRED: Ye spirits of the unbounded Universe,
Whom I have sought in darkness and in light!
Ye, who do compass earth about, and dwell
In subtler essence! ye, to whom the tops
Of mountains inaccessible are haunts,
And earth’s and ocean’s caves familiar things—
I call upon ye by the written charm
Which gives me power upon you—Rise! appear!
------------------------------------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR0M1sWvVIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Wr4hgdu7A

[harry]

G'day from the land of ozzz

The observable universe does not show expansion or acceleration one way or another.

It does show a clustering affect.

The clustering produces areas of high density such as large galaxies and centres of clusters of galaxies that produce extremely large jets and Star that produce extremely small jets. This process of ejecting matter and reforming star and galaxies is a main player in the universe.


A Jet is a Jet, Big or Small: Scale Invariance of Black Hole Jets
http://www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/HIGHL...ght0308_e.html


The blowtorch jet in the radio galaxy NGC 6251
http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/agn/ngc6251.html

One important lesson from radio galaxies is that the central engine continues to eject material in nearly the same direction for at least several million years, based on the fact that the tiny parsec-scale jets in the core regions point in the same direction as the very extended radio structure which may stretch several million light-years (and thus took at least that many years to form).

Photo Release - heic0804: Gargantuan galaxy NGC 1132 - a cosmic fossil?
http://www.spacetelescope.org/news/html/heic0804.html

The Origin of the Brightest Cluster Galaxies
http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~dubinski/bcg/

Giant Galaxy's Violent Past Comes Into Focus
http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/04_...ss_051004.html

and

Spectacular X-ray Jet Points Toward Cosmic Energy Booster
http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/00_...060600pic.html

M87:
Chandra Reviews Black Hole Musical: Epic But Off-Key
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2006/m87/

The processes show a two part one part contracting pulling in star matter into dense regions and the other part ejecting the matter back into space reforming not just star areas but galaxies afar.

Using this logic there cannot ba a centre of the universe from any point.

Using the Big Bang Theory. The origin is founded on point centres spread throughout the universe meaning no one centre of origin.

[Eternity]

Hi everybody!

Could it be that after our 4 dimensional universe was created and around our universe a 5 dimensional universe and around the 5 D universe a 6 D universe and so forth?

[Orca]

Quantifying anything outside the universe is kind of like remembering events that occurred before you were born. Since there is no possible system of measurement for comparison, any hypothesis on extra-universal events are untestable and therefore meaningless.

Kinda anti-climactic, but well, there it is.

Two to Five years maximum we will have found, with the instruments being built today, what lies beyond the universe.

This is a bold yet completely indefensible statement. The "instruments being built today," as all instruments created by humanity, make relative measurements of the internal energies of the universe.

[Chris Peterson]

The observable universe does not show expansion or acceleration one way or another.

Nonsense. The observable universe shows expansion, at an accelerating rate, in every way we can examine it.

It does show a clustering affect.

Gravity, of course, tends to produce local clumpiness- a fact that in no way contradicts the observed expansion of the Universe.

The clustering produces areas of high density such as large galaxies and centres of clusters of galaxies that produce extremely large jets and Star that produce extremely small jets. This process of ejecting matter and reforming star and galaxies is a main player in the universe.

Jets are tiny, local processes that have no impact on the Universe as a whole. Their effect is similar in scale, perhaps, to the effect on world climate of fishes peeing in the ocean.

[aristarchusinexile]

Jets are tiny, local processes that have no impact on the Universe as a whole. Their effect is similar in scale, perhaps, to the effect on world climate of fishes peeing in the ocean.

Three fishes or 10 trillion fish to the 10th power? Actually .. the horrendous decline in fish population has probably already effected our planet's climate because the ocean's chemical makeup will change, allowing more heat absorbtion or less. The depletion has been going on for hundreds of years, after all, and there are virtually no fish left, and I expect science would find fish depletion does partly account for the increasing hurricanes, for one reason, huge schools of fish would mix water from various levels, creating less variable temperature fluctuations from layer to layer.

[aristarchusinexile]

It's funny that everything is expanding from Earth. Why is this so?

Obviously, Earth is the center of the universe.

From a 3D perspective, that's completely true. Of course, from a 3D perspective every point is the center of the Universe.

Only if the universe is infinite .. which it's not IMOPO.

[aristarchusinexile]

This is a bold yet completely indefensible statement. The "instruments being built today," as all instruments created by humanity, make relative measurements of the internal energies of the universe.

Oh yeah? Well, how about the optics involved here? How about when we actually SEE that the stellar universe comes to an end, and something else begins? THAT observation is not far off.

[aristarchusinexile]

Hi everybody!

Could it be that after the expansion from the singularity our 4 dimensional universe was created and around our universe a 5 dimensional universe and around the 5 D universe a 6 D universe and so forth?

Thanks for the answers!

I guess we'd have to wear lots of pairs of those red and blue or whatever colour or energy film-cardboard glasses .. yeah .. we'd need some special glasses would be my guess .. unless of course beings from those other dimensions had the capability to simply pass through dimensions, just suddenly appearing in front of us, like the angels are reported to have done .. & still do.