Weather!

[geckzilla]

I'd suggest that the symbols on the keyboard are neither... or both. Modern applications are context sensitive, interpreting the keyboard symbol differently, as is appropriate.

Well, how an application interprets keyboard input doesn't mean that the keyboard isn't still sending primes. A lot of applications can interpret double dashes (--) as em dashes but that doesn't mean the keyboard doesn't have a dash or an em dash, right?

[Chris Peterson]

I'd suggest that the symbols on the keyboard are neither... or both. Modern applications are context sensitive, interpreting the keyboard symbol differently, as is appropriate.

Well, how an application interprets keyboard input doesn't mean that the keyboard isn't still sending primes. A lot of applications can interpret double dashes (--) as em dashes but that doesn't mean the keyboard doesn't have a dash or an em dash, right?

I'd say a keyboard doesn't have a dash or an em dash. A keyboard doesn't send primes. A keyboard simply sends codes. How they are interpreted depends on the application receiving those codes.

Also, whether there is even a difference between a prime and a single quote depends on the font. There's no rule that says a font can't be designed to use the same symbols for both. Some logical character sets (such as ASCII) do just that.

Better to decide on what the symbol represents based on context than on the design of the font.

[geckzilla]

Fine, it's sending the code for a prime. You know what I meant. A good font designer would know better than to give prime and apostrophe the same design since they are two different things. In fact, it's a good indication that you have an amateur designed font if that font uses the same symbol for both. Applications are also prone to discrepancies even with the good intention of contextually converting prime to apostrophe. Therefore, it's important for typographers to keep all of that in mind. This stuff was drilled into my head in page layout class. I don't miss QuarkXpress one bit.

[Nitpicker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typewriter ... onventions

A number of typographical conventions originate from the widespread use of the typewriter, based on the characteristics and limitations of the typewriter itself. For example, the QWERTY keyboard typewriter [often] did not include keys for the en dash and the em dash. To overcome this limitation, users typically typed more than one adjacent hyphen to approximate these symbols. This typewriter convention is still sometimes used today, even though modern computer word processing applications can input the correct en and em dashes for each font type. Other examples of typewriter practices that are sometimes still used in desktop publishing systems include inserting a double space at the end of a sentence [yuck], and the use of straight quotes (or "dumb quotes") as quotation marks and prime marks.

So, it seems there's nothing queer about calling them all "dumb quotes".

[Chris Peterson]

Fine, it's sending the code for a prime.

No, my point is that it's not doing that at all. The key sends a code which is overloaded: it has no single meaning, but can only be interpreted in context. On a normal English keyboard, only a few keys operate this way. It's very common on some non-English keyboards, however, where characters are derived from two keystrokes. While you could make a keyboard that included all the contextually possible symbols, it would be impractical. And in some languages, it would be effectively impossible.

A good font designer would know better than to give prime and apostrophe the same design since they are two different things.

I disagree. "Good" in this case is a matter of aesthetics; there is no right or wrong. There's nothing inherently wrong with using the same symbol for different meanings. There are fonts that would simply look wrong with different symbols for opening and closing quotes, for instance.

[rstevenson]

A good font designer would know better than to give prime and apostrophe the same design since they are two different things.

I disagree. "Good" in this case is a matter of aesthetics; there is no right or wrong. There's nothing inherently wrong with using the same symbol for different meanings. There are fonts that would simply look wrong with different symbols for opening and closing quotes, for instance.

Yes, there is right and wrong in this case Chris. Even in a font where simple straight forms are used for both the prime and apostrophe, you'll notice if you look closely enough that the prime and the apostrophe are set at different slopes (and similarly for double-primes and quotes.) The exception, which people rarely see any more, would be an old character based interface with limited pixels for each character. Otherwise even the simplest of fonts, such as ones designed to mimic classic typewriter fonts, will have some differentiation between primes and aostrophes.

Rob

[geckzilla]

Could you give me an example of one of those fonts, Chris? I think you may be missing some of the subtlety of typography.

[Chris Peterson]

Yes, there is right and wrong in this case Chris. Even in a font where simple straight forms are used for both the prime and apostrophe, you'll notice if you look closely enough that the prime and the apostrophe are set at different slopes (and similarly for double-primes and quotes.)

Uh, no. That depends on the font. Plenty of good fonts don't use different symbols for different types of quotes. A font isn't "wrong" if it doesn't.

[geckzilla]

...such as?

[Chris Peterson]

Could you give me an example of one of those fonts, Chris? I think you may be missing some of the subtlety of typography.

I've designed a few fonts over the years, and studied typography formally. I don't think I'm overlooking any subtlety.

On this system, I have a number of fancy and headline fonts that either use the same symbol for opening and closing quotes, or don't even have a symbol provided (depending instead on the Unicode prime and double prime symbols). Not sure the names are helpful, but I'm looking at fonts called QuickType, Karina, one version of Courier, one version of Helvetica, Kredit. That's just a quick scan.

Obviously, most fonts are designed to use different symbols. But certainly not all, and that doesn't mean the font designer made an error.

[geckzilla]

Gods damn it, is there anything you haven't studied formally? Your version of Helvetica doesn't have different symbols for the two? It's not complete, then! You sound like you've got some stripped down fonts that are missing some glyphs.

Quicktype Plain
http://origin.myfonts.net/116/fs/u/ac/f ... 534e22.gif

Courier
http://origin.myfonts.net/114/fs/u/cc/2 ... b2a7bd.gif

Karina I can't find any font foundries claiming it. Any idea on that one?

"Kredit is an OCR-A imbued credit card font. Use the transparent regular style or stack the back, front & shine layers."
Ok, it's a display font. There probably are several display fonts like this. But display fonts get to take all sorts of liberties.

[Chris Peterson]

Gods damn it, is there anything you haven't studied formally?

Dance. I got no rhythm, which is frustrating for my wife, who is a former professional ballet dancer.

Your version of Helvetica doesn't have different symbols for the two? It's not complete, then! You sound like you've got some stripped down fonts that are missing some glyphs.

One of my Helvetica fonts uses the same symbol for both. One of my Courier fonts has no symbol at all for either. Personally, I wouldn't say that makes it incomplete. All computer fonts lack symbols for most available codes.

Of course, there are so many versions of even standard fonts that what's on one machine may differ from what's on another.

[geckzilla]

Well, there are all sorts of knock-off fonts and free fonts which are either just plain bad or bad copies of originals. I would refer to a professional font owned by a well-known font foundry for font standards. I've got a couple that came from my old design jobs which were the real deal $500 ridiculously priced sets and even Helvetica Neue Ultra Light Condensed has slightly different marks for prime and apostrophe. It's kind of a racket so there are "Pro" versions of fonts available which have all of the fancy ligatures and extra glyphs and then the lesser versions floating around out there along with all of the ones simply hacked together by the seedy underbelly of the free font trade. Anyway, the vast majority of designers do make the distinction.

[Chris Peterson]

Anyway, the vast majority of designers do make the distinction.

No disagreement there.

But there are so many typographical conventions, and that's all they are: conventions. Not rules. And they change by time and culture. Do you use common ligatures when the font designer provides them (flowers versus flowers)? I'd guess that you generally don't. Where do you place periods with respect to quotes and parentheses? The conventions for that are different for Americans and Brits.

Convention has its place, but going against convention does, too, and doesn't necessarily equate to "wrong".

[geckzilla]

Then again, I never said it was wrong. I simply said that keyboards and most everyone think they are using apostrophes when they are actually unwittingly using primes. I do use ligatures whenever I can, because having the dot over the i in fi disappear into the f gets me off.

[Chris Peterson]

Then again, I never said it was wrong. I simply said that keyboards and most everyone think they are using apostrophes when they are actually unwittingly using primes. I do use ligatures whenever I can, because having the dot over the i in fi disappear into the f gets me off. :wink:

Speak for yourself. On my keyboard, I know when I'm using an apostrophe, and I know exactly which key provides it.

[geckzilla]

Chris Peterson mixes up his primes and apostrophes!

There, now you can disagree with me.

[Beyond]

That's quite a font storm you two have kicked up. I hope the rest of us are able to 'weather' it.

[rstevenson]

Maybe we should just drop the apostrophe altogether, as the Asterisk does whenever there's one in an APOD title.

Rob

[rstevenson]

But to drag this thread kicking and screaming back on topic... We're about to get hit with heavy rain followed by heavy freezing rain, followed by ice pellets and snow -- all in about 24 hours. And I have to drive several hundred km tomorrow in the midst of it all. If you never hear from me again, you'll know why. Wish me luck.

Rob

[neufer]

But to drag this thread kicking and screaming back on topic... We're about to get hit with heavy rain followed by heavy freezing rain, followed by ice pellets and snow -- all in about 24 hours. And I have to drive several hundred km tomorrow in the midst of it all. If you never hear from me again, you'll know why. Wish me luck.

• Donut Don’t go, Rob

[rstevenson]

Ah, jeez, Art. I didn't know you cared.

I just took a close, hour-by-hour look at my weather app, and then decided to cancel. Along my (only possible) route there was a strong possibility of ice buildup of at least 10mm. In fact road closures are expected. It wasn't Christmas related, so later for that trip!

Rob

[Beyond]

Smart move Stay home and enjoy(?) the burst of New England weather while you have it.

[BMAONE23]

Ah, jeez, Art. I didn't know you cared.

I just took a close, hour-by-hour look at my weather app, and then decided to cancel. Along my (only possible) route there was a strong possibility of ice buildup of at least 10mm. In fact road closures are expected. It wasn't Christmas related, so later for that trip!

Rob

WOW 10mm (4") of Ice build-up from one storm? isn't that how galciers are born?

Stay Warm. Fresh baked Chocolate Chip Cookies and lots of Hot Chocolate.

[Beyond]

Ah, jeez, Art. I didn't know you cared.

I just took a close, hour-by-hour look at my weather app, and then decided to cancel. Along my (only possible) route there was a strong possibility of ice buildup of at least 10mm. In fact road closures are expected. It wasn't Christmas related, so later for that trip!

Rob

WOW 10mm (4") of Ice build-up from one storm? isn't that how galciers are born?

Stay Warm. Fresh baked Chocolate Chip Cookies and lots of Hot Chocolate.

You might want to check your math again.