Strange streak discussion: 2004 Dec 7 APOD

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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Guest

Re: Strange Streak—Insect Theory

Post by Guest » Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:56 pm

victorengel wrote:
Doc Bluto wrote:
Sombrero4594 wrote:I would comment upon the insect “consensus” about the streak. As a lifelong student of entomology and the natural sciences, I would offer two problems, both fatal, with the insect idea.

1) As others have pointed out, the shutter speed rules out any insect leaving a trail that long (or any other creature from Earth) on a picture taken at that speed.

2)The trail is perfectly (within the limits of my digital copy) straight. No creature on Earth can do that—not even a peregrine falcon in full stoop at 198mph.

Also, any rocket-like device would have left the cloud associated with liftofff fully visible (unless it was the landing end of trajectory). Since the photographer said there was no trace of it in the next shot, that sort of rules out the landing end of a trajectory.

Superb logic. Thanks!! :D
Hardly! Sombrero claims the trail is too long, without stating how long it is. Is a few centimeters too long for an insect to fly across in 1/20 second? Did he demonstrate the path is longer than a few centimeters? No. Also, the trail is NOT perfectly straight, as has been stated dozens of times. The logic is unsound because it relies on false premises.
Exactly :D I vote for bug theory! I don't see anyone who has shown a flaw in the theory that cannot be explained to the point where we must dislcude the bug theory. Also about that length of the streak, hazeii's experiment showed it is possible to obtain such a lenght:
The exposure was only 1/181 second! That works out as giving less than an inch and a half of trail - close enough to what's visible in the picture for me. Also, that means if the exposure had been 1/20th second (as per the APOD image) the trail would have been nine times longer at 13 1/2 inches. Given the wasp I used was about half an inch long, that means the would have been around 27 times the body length.

Now, if I had a camera where I could control the exposure, I'd try and repeat the experiment with a lower shutter speed. As it is, my only option is to try a very dark room (looking at the EXIF data for my first indoor attempt shows even that was at 1/64 second).
skyglow1

Not Likely

Re: flash?

Post by Not Likely » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:11 pm

victorengel wrote:
Not Likely wrote:If this really an insect caught by a flash, why are the plants near the camera dark on the side nearest the flash?

These plants are the only objects that would be lit by a flash and I see no evidence of any additional light.
How close are the plants to the camera? How close is the insect to the camera? I don't think you can answer either of these questions. The plant question could be answered with a bit of work, using the known focal length of the camera, sensor size, and plant species. As far as I know, nobody has done this work.

In my opinion, this is the biggest flaw of the insect theory. However, it could be a nonissue depending on what the actual distances turn out to be. If the distance to the plants is long enough, then the flash would not be visible.
The working range of the flash is 0.7 - 5.0m. It looks like they're well within 5m, but the flash is collimated by a light guide and could have been set to a minimum. Nevertheless, I would expect to see something if it had such a significant effect on an insect at an approximately similar distance.

I don't want to sound too supportive of the insect answer but have people considered the possibilty of a firefly. They exist in Darwin, they flash every few seconds, it's getting dark, and they're 5 to 25mm in length. On the negative side is that their flashes are 150ms and up, so it would have to be caught as the shutter closed.

victorengel
Science Officer
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm

Re: flash?

Post by victorengel » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:22 pm

Not Likely wrote: The working range of the flash is 0.7 - 5.0m.
Not quite. That is the working range at ISO 100, but the camera has an ISO range of 50 to 400, and I don't know what ISO the camera was set at for these pictures.
It looks like they're well within 5m
Looks can be deceiving. That's why the plants need to be identified or even measured and compared to the focal length used.
but the flash is collimated by a light guide and could have been set to a minimum. Nevertheless, I would expect to see something if it had such a significant effect on an insect at an approximately similar distance.
But we have no idea whether the insect is at approximately the same distance. Recall also that light falls off with the square of the distance. An object twice as far away receives only 1/4 the light.
I don't want to sound too supportive of the insect answer but have people considered the possibilty of a firefly. They exist in Darwin, they flash every few seconds, it's getting dark, and they're 5 to 25mm in length. On the negative side is that their flashes are 150ms and up, so it would have to be caught as the shutter closed.
The duration of a firefly's flash, and the amount of time it takes to fire up are incompatible with the length of the trail and the length of exposure. It could be a firefly, but the bioluminescence is not the source of the bright spot in the picture.

Doug Huffman

Post by Doug Huffman » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:13 pm

Has anyone confirmed if a flash was used the camera was set up to take pictures of clouds.

" Wayne Pryde, Wayne said:

Quote:
I had taken 38 shots at 15 second intervals at a shutter speed of 1/20 and aperture of 5.6. I can confirm that there were definitely no fireworks happing on that evening. "

There is no mention of a flash being used.

Cloudbait

Re: flash?

Post by Cloudbait » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:25 pm

Not Likely wrote:The working range of the flash is 0.7 - 5.0m. It looks like they're well within 5m, but the flash is collimated by a light guide and could have been set to a minimum. Nevertheless, I would expect to see something if it had such a significant effect on an insect at an approximately similar distance.
"Working range" is a pretty vague notion. I agree that some of the plants in the images are probably within a few meters. But the camera was clearly basing its exposure on the sky, not the foreground. It is entirely likely that the flash output was far from its maximum, and I know from using cameras with low-power fill flashes that under reasonably bright outdoor conditions it can be hard to distinguish between shots with and without the flash, even for subjects close to the camera.

This is an interesting avenue of investigation, but I don't see anything in the apparent depth of the foreground shadows that really makes me think the flash didn't fire. And I'm assuming (based on my own experiments) that if this was an insect, it was less than a meter from the camera. The combination of proximity to the flash and some light color certainly explains why such a bug would be much more illuminated than the nearby plants.

Guest

Post by Guest » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:27 pm

Doug Huffman wrote:Has anyone confirmed if a flash was used the camera was set up to take pictures of clouds.

" Wayne Pryde, Wayne said:

Quote:
I had taken 38 shots at 15 second intervals at a shutter speed of 1/20 and aperture of 5.6. I can confirm that there were definitely no fireworks happing on that evening. "

There is no mention of a flash being used.
A flash was indeed used. This was discovered from the EXIF data, and the photographer later confirmed it.

Guest

Post by Guest » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:34 pm

Looks like someone fired a bottle rocket from high up aiming at the pier and exploded a few feet above the water.

hazeii3

Post by hazeii3 » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:02 pm

Although I don't like to be known as the kind of guy who keeps dead bodies around the house, in this case I did hang on to the corpses of my experimental subjects (on the offchance I might want to play with them again).

But given there were a few comments querying the length of my particular trail of the dead, I decided to have a shot (or hundred) at extending it.

Image

With a certain amount of messing about with the lighting, I managed to convinced the camera to shoot at 1/17th second (as reported by the EXIF data). The giraffe (or whatever it is) was placed in the background as something to focus on, it's actually about 20 feet from the camera. The wasp-on-the-wheel is about 3 feet from the camera, and is travelling at about 5mph (I spun the wheel much more slowly than before, about 1 rev/sec).

So, broadly speaking, the kind of setup that gives a good streak-and-blob (in the case of my camera anyway) is an exposure around 1/20th second with the insect about 3 feet away doing 5mph, using 'synchro flash'. With the practice I've had, I can now produce the effect on the majority of pictures taken with my enormously sophisticated (cough) experimental setup...

Also, having now shot a couple of hundred pictures showing the effect, quite a few of them show odd highlights and blobs - for example, in the picture below, the blob just above the trail is a reflection of the flash on the upper wing of the wasp (the lower blob is glare off the supporting wire).

Image

I'll put up some additional background info on my web page in due course; in the meantime I'm going to get back to some image processing ;)

GaryGnu65

Another explanation

Post by GaryGnu65 » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:05 pm

The streak in the picture may have been produced by a "Rod" flying by. I first heard of Rods on a Discovery channel special and have been intrigued ever since. Several sites show pictures and/or videos of them including Roswellrods.com. Of course a slower shutter speed would have revealed more details.

Guest

Jitter bug

Post by Guest » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:11 pm

We know that the data says there was a flash I just don't see evidence of one other
than what you say is reflectance from a bug.

Colours seem unimportant since what we are really interested in is the ratio of
albedo of the vegitation to that of the likely bug, the bandpass of the camera optics
and CCD and the distances to each.
Most of these can either be measured directly or approximated with some accuracy.
The simplest test would be to tie some bugs to strings and see how bright they
are for a known distance, exposure, flash setting, etc.
However, I think the idea of creating bug standards is almost as crazy as
using SNIa as standard candles ;-)

notwithatenfootpole

beefore and after

Post by notwithatenfootpole » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:22 pm

hazeii3 wrote: With a certain amount of messing about with the lighting, I managed to convinced the camera to shoot at 1/17th second (as reported by the EXIF data). The giraffe (or whatever it is) was placed in the background as something to focus on, it's actually about 20 feet from the camera. The wasp-on-the-wheel is about 3 feet from the camera, and is travelling at about 5mph (I spun the wheel much more slowly than before, about 1 rev/sec).
You really bring new definition to the words mad scientist.

MrMoon

third and last time

Post by MrMoon » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:28 pm

I gamma corrected it and I hope that you finally see and comment it

Image

Guest

Re: third and last time

Post by Guest » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:39 pm

MrMoon wrote:I gamma corrected it and I hope that you finally see and comment it
Are you sure that loop isn't just part of the base of the cloud that's crossed by the trail?

MrMoon

finally

Post by MrMoon » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:52 pm

I've never study clouds but when I followed the trail and saw the loop it just seemed as strange as the trail.

Deckham

Post by Deckham » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:46 am

Couldn't find reference to this anywhere, so here's an observation just for info -

Look underneath the yellowish crane/derrick/thingy towards centre-left of the image. Beneath the crane nearly at the shoreline and slightly further left, there is a very clear image of a person.

In the 'first (or last)' frame, he is turned either directly towards, or away from the camera. In the other two frames, he is side-on.

H0meAl0ne

Re: well now

Post by H0meAl0ne » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:09 am

Doc Bluto wrote:
HawaiiArmo wrote:Hey Doc Bluto,
I'm still waiting for your fake images that you claimed to have created. You talk a good talk, but you have no facts to back up your statements. I want to see these images that you bragged about. Anything will do, even the most low-tech artificially created image would suffice, and it would give you some credibility...
You may wait. You missed the point again. My images are not the issue. As far as proof... no one has proof of anything, in case you hadn't noticed. And there never will be proof and my images will neither advance or refute any proof of anything.!
Nonsense Dr Bluto. I hypothesise that your attempt at a digital creation to mimic the original image will be distinguishable from it. Post one of your pics that claim to mimic it. Let people have a go at distinguishing between the two images. If we can detect a difference then my hypothesis is refuted.
Doc Bluto wrote:Try this experiment. Try to create a faked image... that looks kind of like the original. Try it... after a few adjustments here and there, you too will have a beautiful incoming meteorite from space in your very own digital image....You cannot now place the burden of proof on my created images... that is not the question here. That's a dodge.
You keep saying you have these pics that so beautifully mimic the original. That's just your opinion though. I don't care how many times you assert something, it doesn't carry any weight. I don't care if you even get a few celebrities up on a stage to say that they once created fake digital pictures.

If you really want to change our minds on this matter, then propose some tests based on the hypothesis that the pictures are faked. Something testable. Maybe you could predict that the colour space of the altered area will be different from the colour space of the surrounding image due to a, b or c. Maybe you could predict that the jpeg artifacts along the edge of the artifact will be subtly different because of x, y or z. Give us something to test.

SC Guest

Re: finally

Post by SC Guest » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:32 am

Let's all pay attention to what MrMoon noticed. This could be important.
I was initially an "exploding lamp/shadow" enthusiast, then a reluctant "bug" convert. Any explanation has to address this loop. It's real. It's not a cloud shadow.
MrMoon wrote:I've never study clouds but when I followed the trail and saw the loop it just seemed as strange as the trail.
The loop is not a contrail, shadow, camera artifact, meteor, rocket or a bug trajectory. It definitely is strange, and appears to be part of the streak, even though it's somewhat fainter.

Thanks MrMoon!

Tabu

Post by Tabu » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:39 am

Ok here is that last thing I will say on this.I am reminded of the story of rods that I saw on the descovery channel.I was laughing my head off at the story.There was only a mystery in the minds of those that refused to see the simple explanation.I will admit that I was intriged by the pictures but once a resonable explanation was forthcomming I was satified.

Can't use my Bad Buoy

Not so fast

Post by Can't use my Bad Buoy » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:49 am

victorengel wrote:Facts not in evidence. To demonstrate this is the case, take a difference image, and show that in the difference image, the lamp post overlapping the putative insect is more clearly visible than other lamp posts. To my eyes, this is not the case at all. If you can demonstrate this, please show the pictures. Previously posted pictures that I've seen don't show this.
Image Image

I have a digital camera and insects available (however in foraging mode = low flight speed). The problem is that my camera has a much larger sensor than a G3 has. That means the depth of field at the same aperture is much smaller. I could stop down, but then the exposure would be different. It's also extremely difficult to capture a fast flying insect under the conditions we're talking about. It would truly be a big help if anyone could take some honest, supporting photos. I don't know of any decent camera which doesn't allow manual control of the shutter speed, abit more important here than the f stop. And outside photos should probably be taken immediately at sunset to get very similar backlighting, but anything would be of great help.
But without wobble in its flight path?
Did you miss the posts that clearly quantify the wobble in the flight path?You make the slight deviations on the fairly straight path sound as though they fully account for insect aerobatics.
Image
Can we please have some demonstrative photos from anyone? So far everything demonstrates a non-uniform trail which has no segments even approaching the linearity of the Darwin event. We need at least one photo showing a uniform, fairly straight path of an insect for a duration consistent with the trail length:body width ratio in the Darwin event. And that insect should be capable of banking or 'showing its wings' in something approaching the orientation as photographed in Darwin.
The major ground work was done by the guy with the disassembled bicycle who can't be trusted warming KFC :D
...why would you expect a bicycle to warm KFC?
:roll:

HawaiiArmo

Hoax logic paradox

Post by HawaiiArmo » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:53 am

Doc Bluto, you are once again dodging a very important aspect of the issue. By your sense of logic, you can rule anything out by saying that there's no arguement because it's a hoax. I can apply the same thing to life, maybe none of us exist outside of someones elaborate dream. Go prove that? Does that mean that none of us exist? Very few people would concur with the statement, yet there are a few givens that we all accept. We assume certain things at every turn.
What I'm saying is, let us take your logic to this task, let's say that the picture really was a hoax. Well, you still have to figure out how the hoax was created? When someone caught footage of bigfoot, someone like you would say, why analyze it, it's clearly a hoax cause bigfoot does not exist. But someone actually had to analyze the tape, see the hoax was created, thus, you still have to replicate it, and analyze it. This thread is basically analysis of a picture. HOAX or not, why don't you go create it, just to prove that you can. Hazei's experiment proves that he can recreate it if he wanted to, and we now know that it's a bug.
If it would make it easier on you, we can start this arguement with 2 completely different assumptions. One, that this is a hoax, it's not worth arguing about, and two, what if this isn't a hoax? What else can it be? If you really want to participate in some science, prove that it wasn't a hoax. Where's your proof? We dont' have any pictures that you have shown. The only proof you have is the distrust you show for the original photographer. Does that mean we all have to take your word for it?
This kind of reminds me of the whole Crop Circle paranoia. There were a lot of people like you saying, it's clearly a haox, because UFO's don't exist, but they never did anything to prove it. It took a few adventurous and capable people to go out and recreate crop cirlces as they seemed to appear and proved that it really was a hoax. Well, Hazei did that, he proved that what we have on the picture is an insect, and it's clearly possible for a bug to create such an image. Now, whether the photographer knew how to manipulate the setting, tha'ts a different story.
You can work on 2 assumptions, and just as you believe mine is wrong, it's equally as likely that your assumption's incorrect as well. You know nothing about the photographer who took the photo in the first place. You can use this arguement just as easily to support your assertian as I can. There really is no way out of it. It truly is a logic paradox. Even your belief in a hoax starts on an assumption that it was a hoax. Why should we start on that assumption? What pushes the arguement towards this being a hoax? You say the most simple, and clearest explanation is that this is a hoax? Why is that? What makes it so simple and clear that it was a hoax? Hazei clearly showed that it's possible for an insect to do this. There is no proof that you can use for your arguement. Basically, in order to fully support your arguement, we'd have to kidnap the Photographer, strap him to a lie detector, and try to see if he's telling us the truth. Of course, if everything checked out, you'de still be biased towards your initial reasoning. You'de probably say something like, Lie detectors are not always accurate, maybe the technician was a novice, or the suspect knew how to cheat the detector, or that it's unscientific. There's no way out of the arguement, unless you follow a line of reasoning or assumption. Let those of us who believe it to be the truth to follow our assumption, and you can follow yours. So far, there's nothing you've done to convince us towards your line of reasoning. Basically the only difference between our assumptions is our distrust in people. Maybe someone cheated on you recently, or your parents weren't there for you, thus leading to your initial distrust in people. I'm sure from your point of view, I'm too naive to think clearly because I haven't been shot at by my step-father, or had friends of mine rob me blind when I wasn't looking, or whatever line of reasoning youd'e use. Thus, in order to avoid this paradox, I'm gonna lean to one assumption over the other.

hawaiianmike

reset whole thing

Post by hawaiianmike » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:38 am

:roll:

I think someone needs to hit the reset button---this forum has wandered away from it's original purpose---also, some nasty things have been said and people are getting into personalities, possible family history and immoral and illegal relationships with animals---wait, that's another forum--SORRY!!

It seems like we have 2-3 camps, each with a unique train of thought-

1) The bug people and the whole shutter speed, pixel thing--

2) the "I'm not sure but it looks like a contrail, smoke trail or whatever, and it ends with the lamp flash--insinuating everything from meteorites, to lasers from secret satellites and on and on

3) the "maybe the smoke trail and flash are not connected except by this picture, of which I am the leasd proponet but have been dismissed as too unlikely a co-incidence, even though a freakin' bug just happening to fly past Pryde's camera at THE EXACTLY CORRECT MOMENT TO BE CAUGHT IN 1/20th OF A SECOND is not as unlikely a co-incidence (whatever)--

Sooooo, why doesn't someone take the time to organize the various possibilities and put them into a grid, and we can begin to assign probabilites to them and arrive at the MOST probable explantion, realizing that we may never really know the exact explanation-

Also, I tried to mention a sighting in 1979, where I saw something easily as fun to discuss, but was either kicked off the forum or had a computer problem just then---a new topic may be interesting as we have beat this one almost to death and tempers are rising as frustration evolves--SO?

JRR

Re: Strange streak discussion: 2004 Dec 7 APOD

Post by JRR » Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:14 am

RJN wrote:What is the strange streak and flash on the 2004 Dec 7 APOD found here: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041207.html ?

In an email from the photographer who took the picture, Wayne Pryde, Wayne said:
I had taken 38 shots at 15 second intervals at a shutter speed of 1/20 and aperture of 5.6. I can confirm that there were definitely no fireworks happing on that evening.
As stated in the APOD, I am not sure what caused the streak and flash. My hope is that this discussion will zoom in on the correct answer or narrow the realistic possibilities.

- RJN
It appears to me that this series of pictures were taken behind some sort of glass window. Thus I suspect the "trail", "loop" and "flash" are simply reflections of something to the rear of the camera. Perhaps a string with a metal bit on the end was knocked by the photographer and it's reflection showed up in the picture. If you pan the picture below the "loop" you can see what appears to be another artifact of a reflection. The cloud seems to have an overlay of something - looks like a slightly dirty window to me...

John :-#)#

Doug Huffman

Post by Doug Huffman » Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:20 am

Today's picture of the Day carries the legend " Discussion consensus: Australian strange streak is plausibly just a flying insect." Kind of Outrageous really-

You know I think this pic shows what it appears to show.

'Can't use my Bad Buoy' on Page 110 posted a photo answer that shows smoke and flash clearly separate. The event happens at or near the lamp pole I suspect viewing this scene in a stereo viewer will prove this- it will also disprove a small object close to the camera.

http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 3b2b3817d2

The entry tube does extend into the sky it gets fainter as it goes up, I suspect because the top is angled away from us like a pencil held in front of you with its lead toward you and down and the eraser end up and tilted farther away.

Doug Huffman

Post by Doug Huffman » Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:35 am

Just catching up- the loop appears faintly in the high def Picture I saved to my desktop too. Whats this ? Thanks MrMoon its a perfect looking oval that merges perfectly back into the the tube. Egg Shape- thats one smart insect.

DC

Post by DC » Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:46 am

wow, lots of posts I've not read since I was on yesterday.

Looking at the original images with my improvised color filters, there seems to be some extra structures that need to be explained. The structures are clearly there, but they are also mixed with JPG artifacts. I will describe the structures in relation to the following image which I posted earlier.

Image

I notice three additional features in my images:

1- I am finding that the lower "wing" turns upward at exactly the point where the image intersects the pole, and continues upward until about the level of the bottom of the "abdomen." I'll call this the upswing.

2- It seems to cross under a dark appendage which extends diagonally downward from the "abdomen." I'll call this the dark appendage.

3- The "abdomen" has a large dark area associated with it, centered almost exactly on the top of the pole. I'll call this the dark area.

(I use the word "exactly" for the benefit of the pole theorists)

In filtering for a more bluish wavelength, the dark area becomes apparent, the upswing become highlighted, and the dark appendage appears as a shadow. In filtering for a more reddish wavelength, the dark appendage becomes more highlighted and the upswing and also the initial downward "wing" become a shadow.

The top left image is an inverse of the usual diff image. The top right image is a pre filtered diff which highlights the upswing very clearly, as well as the shadow of the dark appendage. The middle left image shows the dark area, which I diff against a filtered (before + After)/2 to try to show the size of the dark area more clearly in the middle right image. Note that the middle right image is intended to show pixels getting darker, and clip out pixels getting lighter compared with the BefAft image. The middle left image also shows the upswing and shadow of the dark appendage with only color filtering and no contrast enhancement. The bottom image is in a more reddish wavelength as mentioned with no contrast enhancement.

Don't ask me what it means.

BefAft = (before + after)/2;
filter1 is on color vector 60/53/49
"Pos" means negative results clipped out.
Top row images have enhanced contrast, also the second middle row image.

Top Row
1- invert(Pos(BefAft - Event)
2- Invert Pos((Event - Filter1(Event)) - (BefAft - Filter1(BefAft)))

The second frame of the top row

MiddleRow
1- BluishFilter(Event).
2- BluishFilter(BefAft) - BluishFilter(Event) -- as I recall.
The middle row first frame shows a larger dark area with its center at the top of the pole. The second frame is a contrast enhanced Pos Diff with the same wavelength filter of BefAft, with the intent to highlight the size of the dark area.

Bottom row:
ReddishFilter(Event)

ImageImage

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