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Dark Matter Thoughts
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:39 pm
by harry
G'day
Interesting reading
paper 2008
Scientists Detect Cosmic 'Dark Flow' Across Billions of Light Years
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/new ... _flow.html
updated paper 2010
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/new ... 0-023.html
According to Atrio-Barandela, who has focused on understanding the possible errors in the team's analysis, the new study provides much stronger evidence that the dark flow is real. For example, the brightest clusters at X-ray wavelengths hold the greatest amount of hot gas to distort CMB photons. "When processed, these same clusters also display the strongest KSZ signature -- unlikely if the dark flow were merely a statistical fluke," he said.
supported papers
> Download preprint of the 'dark flow' paper (results and implications)
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/pdf ... ct2008.pdf
> Download preprint of the 'dark flow' paper (technical details)
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/pdf ... npress.pdf
It is interesting that the formation of a dipole was found, indicating a possible origin from the centre of a cluster of galaxies.
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:31 am
by alter-ego
It is interesting that the formation of a dipole was found, indicating a possible origin from the centre of a cluster of galaxies.
Hi harry,
I believe your statement is a bit misleading, and I apologize if I interpreted you wrong.
The dipole Kashlinsky et al wrote about was determined to be statistically significant
only after analyzing WMAP data over an area that included a very large number of galaxy clusters
also having X-ray emissions. The CMB photons are scattered by the hot gas in clusters. This SZ/KSZ effect (which is over my head)
is the source of the CMB fluctuation from which Kashlinsky converted the dipole signal, micro kelvin, to bulk flow velocity, and the statistical significance was obtained by only having a large data set. Nowhere does Kashlinsky attribute the diplole to specific location of an "attractor" (if that's what you were implying). There are two important points worth mentioning: 1) Kashlinksy showed the bulk flow to be coherent, and have an extent of > 1Gly (as far as his X-ray data could go). 2) Although a vast bulk flow region was identified, the direction of the flow (toward or away from us) is not.
Below are two quotes from his cosmological implicatons paper (btw, Greek symbols did not work in the quote format, so I chopped out math regions that showed up as garbage):
Peculiar velocities of clusters of galaxies can be measured by studying the fluc-
tuations in the cosmic microwave background (CMB) generated by the scattering
of the microwave photons by the hot X-ray emitting gas inside clusters. While
for individual clusters such measurements result in large errors, a large statistical
sample of clusters allows one to study cumulative quantities dominated by the
overall bulk flow of the sample with the statistical errors integrating down. We
present results from such a measurement using the largest all-sky X-ray cluster
catalog combined to date and the 3-year WMAP CMB data. We find a strong and
coherent bulk flow on scales out to at least (greater than or equal) 300h-1Mpc, the limit of our catalog.
This flow is difficult to explain by gravitational evolution within the framework
of the concordance LambdaCDM model and may be indicative of the tilt exerted across
the entire current horizon by far-away pre-inflationary inhomogeneities..
Our findings imply that the Universe has a surprisingly coherent
bulk motion out to at least 300h-1Mpc and with a fairly high amplitude of (greater than or equal to)
600-1000 km/sec, necessary to produce the measured amplitude of the dipole signal of ~2-3 microK. Such
a motion is diffcult to account for by gravitational instability within the framework of the
standard concordance LambdaCDM cosmology but could be explained by the gravitational pull of
pre-inflationary remnants located well outside the present-day horizon.
FYI, the quantity "h" is a ratio between 0.5 and 0.75 (meant to quantify the uncertainty in Hubble constant)
Kashlinsky would not have made the last statement above if there was room to interpret the dipole data as a source for anything else but bulk flow.
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:24 pm
by swainy
I just had an thought. I was watching Hawking's Universe. He stated: His idea, BB Theory Came from black holes. If there is a hole in space time, which is a black hole, then that's where matter comes from nothing in the BB Theory. You just reverse a black hole. So here's my thought. Has another Big Bang took place? And is the reason behind the Dark Flow? I'm going to take it further than that. Our Sun, can not super nova, twenty times our sun can super nova. There, is a limit, To what can and can not Happen. What if A Black Hole has a limit? We Know of an 18/20 Billion s/m b/h, But What if there is a limit to what a black hole becomes critically unstable. And another big bang happens? we would not see this, or its affects for billions of years. But at The End of a dark Flow, might be different.
TC
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:40 pm
by Chris Peterson
swainy wrote:I just had an thought. I was watching Hawking's Universe. He stated: His idea, BB Theory Came from black holes. If there is a hole in space time, which is a black hole, then that's where matter comes from nothing in the BB Theory.
Except, the BB theory does not have matter coming from nothing.
And FWIW, this idea of the Universe coming from a black hole, or being the interior of a black hole, doesn't really rise to the level of a scientific theory. At this point it is little more than idle philosophical speculation- and the fact that it is Hawking's speculation doesn't make it any more scientific or any more likely.
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:30 pm
by swainy
Chris Peterson wrote:Except, the BB theory does not have matter coming from nothing.
Here his words. Matter from nothing.
http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_hawkin ... verse.html
Chris, You Have No idea What your talking about.
And this is the last time you will here from me.
Bye
The Code.
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:51 pm
by Chris Peterson
He doesn't say that. In the midst of a general discussion about modern cosmology, he suggests the Universe
might create itself from nothing. However, he doesn't say it did, and the BB theory does not say that it did. Any discussion about the initial conditions of the Universe remains largely speculative.
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:43 am
by Ann
This flow is difficult to explain by gravitational evolution within the framework
of the concordance LambdaCDM model and may be indicative of the tilt exerted across
the entire current horizon by far-away ]pre-inflationary inhomogeneities..
Interesting.
I have seen some speculation that the Dark Flow may be caused by factors existing in the "background universe" that gave rise to the Big Bang.
I apologize for my terminology, and I realize that it reflects my insufficient understanding of these things. I like the idea that our universe did not, in fact, arise out of nothing, but that there was something pre-existing that gave rise to it.
Anyway. I think I have heard some speculation that the Dark Flow may reflect factors that existed in that "pre-existing universe" or the "pre-existing something" that existed before the Big Bang. If anything at all existed before the Big Bang, of course. I realize that we can't know anything about what, if anything, existed before the Big Bang. Or at least we haven't figured out a way to deduce anything about what may have existed before the Big Bang.
Well, according to the above quote the Dark Flow may reflect not what existed before the Big Bang, but before inflation, which took place just instants after the Big Bang. That is interesting enough to me.
Ann
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:26 am
by swainy
Ann wrote:Anyway. I think I have heard some speculation that the Dark Flow may reflect factors that existed in that "pre-existing universe" or the "pre-existing something" that existed before the Big Bang. If anything at all existed before the Big Bang, of course. I realize that we can't know anything about what, if anything, existed before the Big Bang. Or at least we haven't figured out a way to deduce anything about what may have existed before the Big Bang.
The Universe is infinite, There are an infinite number of next Big Bangs waiting to happen, in the form of 20 billion s/m/b/h's through out the universe. The Dark Flow is a curtain that points to the truth. Matter from Nothing is imposable. Matter just gets recycled. And Black Holes do Have a limit to when they explode.
I won't get fooled again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUbGLVvf ... re=related
http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/05 ... et-so-big/
Will You?
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:36 am
by makc
Wait, wait, wait, haven't you literally said:
swainy wrote:And this is the last time you will here from me.
Please keep your promise, don't make us to make you
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:26 pm
by bystander
Blow for 'dark flow' in Planck's new view of the cosmos
New Scientist | Maggie McKee | 2013 Apr 03
A potential portal to other universes seems to have closed. The sharpest map yet made of light from the infant universe shows no evidence of "dark flow" – a stream of galaxy clusters rushing in the same direction that hinted at the existence of a multiverse.
That is the conclusion of 175 scientists working with data from the
European Space Agency's Planck spacecraft. But champions of dark flow are not ready to give up yet, including one Planck scientist who says his team's analysis is flawed.
The
first suggestion that the flow existed came in 2008, when a group led by
Alexander Kashlinsky of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, scrutinised what was then the best map of the cosmic microwave background radiation, the big bang's afterglow.
NASA's WMAP satellite measured the temperature of this ancient light, revealing fluctuations in the density of matter in the very early universe.
The light's wavelength can also change noticeably when photons are scattered off ionised gas moving through space, providing a way to probe the velocity of such gas. Kashlinsky's WMAP analysis found that hundreds of gas-rich galaxy clusters appeared to be streaming towards a region in the sky between the constellations Vela and Centaurus.
Tilted table
This flow suggested that the universe had somehow become lopsided, as if space-time itself was behaving like a tilted table and matter was sliding off, says Kashlinsky. That goes against the
standard model of cosmology, which says that the universe is increasingly uniform on larger scales, making it unlikely that structures big enough to produce such a tilt would form. Some researchers suggested that, instead,
other universes could be pulling on matter in ours, creating the flow. But
other groups looking at WMAP data
did not detect the controversial motion.
The latest search is based on a new, higher-resolution map of the cosmic microwave background from Planck. The Planck team says their multi-pronged analysis also found no evidence of galaxy clusters gushing along in a coherent stream.
"The Planck team's paper appears to rule out the claims of Kashlinsky and collaborators," says
David Spergel of Princeton University, who was not involved in the work. If there is no dark flow, there is no need for exotic explanations for it, such as other universes, says Planck team member
Elena Pierpaoli at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles. "You don't have to think of alternatives."
But it is too soon to rule out dark flow entirely, argues
Fernando Atrio-Barandela at the University of Salamanca in Spain. A member of the Planck team, he withheld his name from his colleagues' paper because he says they overestimated the uncertainty in their measurements, making what might be a subtle signal of dark flow look like mere noise.
"One has to be very careful not to wash the baby out with the bathwater," agrees Kashlinsky. He and Atrio-Barandela are running their own analysis with the new Planck data and expect to have results in just a few months.
Planck intermediate results. XIII. Constraints on peculiar velocities - Planck Collaboration
On the Statistical Significance of the Bulk Flow Measured by the PLANCK Satellite - F. Atrio-Barandela
http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30986
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:24 am
by THX1138
There are a good many who believe its another universe next to ours playing tug of war with ours then another good many whom believe its nothing of the sort. Then also still others that believe that there isn’t any dark flow at all and still more that offer up pros and cons for it for a whole host of other reasons, it seems. This is exactly why I love this website, no one seems to know who’s got it right at this point but eventually we’re all going to find out “ I hope “ I’m glad Bystander resurrected this thread because this dark flow “ if indeed it is real “ question seems to at least have the potential to answer a few questions as to the workings of this universe and better yet if that does happen as always when one answer is found it leads to a gang of new things to try to figure out. I hope that makes sense, it does to me and it is exactly why astronomy picture of the day is my site on this here earth
Re: Dark Flow
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:41 pm
by rstevenson
I think you missed the point THX1138. This latest report says quite clearly, "The sharpest map yet made of light from the infant universe shows no evidence of "dark flow" ...". [emphasis mine]
Rob