Black Hole Binary Systems (APOD 09 Nov 2008)

[astrolabe]

Hello All,

Have I been slumbering? I this technique for actually displaying BHs new? This is my first glimpse at one nevermind two! What is the significance of them appearing white and at what location on the EM spectrum does the X-ray show this kind of saturation?

What an astounding photo!!!!!!!!!!

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap081109.html

[Chris Peterson]

Have I been slumbering? I this technique for actually displaying BHs new? This is my first glimpse at one nevermind two! :shock: What is the significance of them appearing white and at what location on the EM spectrum does the X-ray show this kind of saturation?

Not new at all. There must be hundreds of images of black hole systems. They are often easy to image because of the huge amounts of high energy radiation produced when material falls onto their surfaces.

They appear white in this image because they are the brightest thing in the image in both channels (x-rays and radio), and it is conventional to scale astronomical images so that the brightest pixels are white, and the darkest are black.

While I've seen a number of similar images of black holes with accretion discs and jets, this is the first time I've seen a binary system. Agreed, this is a remarkable image. And the scale! Two supermassive objects separated by the width of a small galaxy, in a complex orbit around each other. Wow. What a Universe we live in.

[ta152h0]

Hi ya'll. Is it possible this is actually a triumvirate ? I see three " tails" on the beast. Time for an ice cold one and discuss.

[Chris Peterson]

Hi ya'll. Is it possible this is actually a triumvirate ? I see three " tails" on the beast.:)

My interpretation of this image is that there are four jets. The lower (in the image) jets of each black hole are clearly seen extending to the left. The upper jets extend up and to the right, but since one is directly in front of the other, they only appear as one. If the image had higher spatial resolution, it would probably be obvious that there are four jets. It might also be apparent if doppler data can be extracted from one of the channels, but I don't know what the raw data is like.

[astrolabe]

Hello Chris,

It's unimaginable to me that so much power and concentrated energy can be produced by anything just by the acretion of surrounding matter. It wound appear to be not a slow process at all to effect such an enormous generation of power especially considering the distances involved. Extremely high level QM dynamics at it's best!

Thank you for your insights on this.

[starnut]

In the arXiv abstract that this APOD's explanation is based on, it mentions that the speed of the system is

"a Mach number of M~1.4 or speed of v~1200 km s^-1"

How is the Mach number calculated? I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that the Mach number is based on the atmospheric pressure on Earth!

Gary

[Chris Peterson]

How is the Mach number calculated? I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that the Mach number is based on the atmospheric pressure on Earth!

The Mach number is just the ratio of the velocity of an object in some medium and the speed of sound in that medium.

[pjborg]

It seems to me that 25,000 light years apart is pretty far for two objects to be considered a binary system, even supermassive black holes. They must be really supermassive.
pj

[starnut]

How is the Mach number calculated? I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that the Mach number is based on the atmospheric pressure on Earth!

The Mach number is just the ratio of the velocity of an object in some medium and the speed of sound in that medium.

The speed of sound in vacuum or even rarefied gas? How is that possible?

Gary

[rigelan]

I don't think they're perfect vacuums. Even if they are better vacuums than most places on earth . . . If there is gas, it is no longer a perfect vacuum. Thus it will have a possibility to transmit energy by particle collisions : sound

[geckzilla]

I guess that the paths of the jets tell a good story about how the holes are orbiting each other. You can see exactly where one is heading in nearly the same direction as the jets and when it starts moving back the opposite way. I wouldn't have guessed it to be this way.

[virtualdean]

It seems to me that 25,000 light years apart is pretty far for two objects to be considered a binary system, even supermassive black holes. They must be really supermassive.
pj

This must be a misprint written by some science journalist who normally covers sports. 25000 light years! Maybe 25 light years. 25K light years is about the same distance between the Solar System and our Galactic Center.

[Chris Peterson]

This must be a misprint written by some science journalist who normally covers sports. 25000 light years! Maybe 25 light years. 25K light years is about the same distance between the Solar System and our Galactic Center.

The original paper concludes the two black holes are a gravitationally bound system with a separation of 7-8 kpc. In other words, this is a binary system with the components 25,000 ly apart.

The system was created by the merger of two galaxies, so it isn't unreasonable that the distances between the bound supermassive black holes is on a galactic scale.

[virtualdean]

This must be a misprint written by some science journalist who normally covers sports. 25000 light years! Maybe 25 light years. 25K light years is about the same distance between the Solar System and our Galactic Center.

The original paper concludes the two black holes are a gravitationally bound system with a separation of 7-8 kpc. In other words, this is a binary system with the components 25,000 ly apart.

The system was created by the merger of two galaxies, so it isn't unreasonable that the distances between the bound supermassive black holes is on a galactic scale.

Thanks for the link to the original paper. The operative word is in the title....A "PROTO" supermassive black hole binary.
So it not a binary yet but is destined to someday be in the fullness of time. Two former galactic centes each containing many billions of stars and each with a super massive black hole whirling around each other and destined to coalesce. Does that constitue a binary in the way it is normally used?
Recently, the largest super massive black hole (18 bill sol mass) was discovered to be a true binary with a 100 million sol mass black hole in orbit around it at a distance of 3 light years...Now Thats a binary...

[iamlucky13]

Hello Chris,

It's unimaginable to me that so much power and concentrated energy can be produced by anything just by the acretion of surrounding matter. It wound appear to be not a slow process at all to effect such an enormous generation of power especially considering the distances involved. Extremely high level QM dynamics at it's best!

Thank you for your insights on this.

Consider this analogy. Falling from about 35 meters in earth's gravity will accellerate an object to about 60 miles per hour. Ever felt the brakes on a car after a hard stop? They get hot from dissipating the energy of a 3000 pound car. Now consider millions of tons of matter falling in from billions of miles under the influence of a large black hole's gravity. That's a lot of energy!

And for a more down-to-earth example, consider...the earth! A lot of the heat that keeps the mantle and core molten is left over from the accretion of matter to form the planet.

[astrolabe]

Hello iamlucky13,

Good to hear from you.