Hadron collider CERN

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:03 pm

G'day from the land of oz

The Hadron collider may find the smallest subatomic particle that makes up Protons and Neutrons.

This is quite interesting

http://webcast.cern.ch/index.html

http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/

GOD · Post by **GOD** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:01 am

harry wrote:G'day from the land of oz

The Hadron collider may find the smallest subatomic particle that makes up Protons and Neutrons.

Harry> Yes, the collider will discover new smaller particles. However, there is no smallest particle. I create physical matter in such a way that the closer you look, the more you shall find. The same applies to the farther out you look in the cosmos. The physical universe is a constantly created fractal projection from a non-physical origin. There is no absolute smallest physical particle, nor absolute largest physical formation. It's infinity both ways.

The physical universe is a fabricated illusion -- a playground for humanity to learn in. It's a great idea to explore where all the explosive material came from in the first place. The Big Bang wasn't an accident, it was guided. Nor is the universe inert. It is ALIVE. Humanity is starting to see evidence of the intelligence behind this, that makes it possible to have theories in the first place.

Life is planned with purpose by sharing and co-operation. Where sharing is complete, life is healthy. Where sharing is incomplete, life is ill. Where sharing does not exist, life does not exist.

Humanity should be teaching children that being loving towards others is the right thing to do, and that all life is a living demonstration of that truth. Encouraging kindness, love, co-operation and sharing. Yet humanity seems to prefer to teach using vague theories that encourages no change, greed and violence.

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:50 am

G'day God

Its not just finding the smallest particle, its also understanding how these particles can form compact matter and under what conditions.

This is going to open many roads to heaven and beyond, where no man has gone before. Maybe some girls have.

GOD · Post by **GOD** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:05 am

harry wrote:G'day God

Its not just finding the smallest particle, its also understanding how these particles can form compact matter and under what conditions.

This is going to open many roads to heaven and beyond, where no man has gone before. Maybe some girls have.

Harry> Yes it will be an eye opener indeed and will kill many current theories, as collider test studies lead to discovery that gravity is a particle flow, not a bending of space-time.

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:14 am

G'day God

I did know that you were that smart to think of space-time.

I thought God just "Does it"

makc · Post by **makc** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:04 am

large hardon collider is quite a popular topic these days

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:14 am

G'day MakC

Sure is and was.

No black holes formed.
No end to the Earth.

Just a flash

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:33 pm

harry wrote:G'day MakC

Sure is and was.

No black holes formed.
No end to the Earth.

Just a flash

I don't think they have had any collisions, yet. They only have one beam circulating. But don't worry, if they do create a black hole, we'll probably never know about it.

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:06 am

G'day bystander

Its amazing how stories grow from nothing.

Reminds me of the BBT.

Doum · Post by **Doum** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:15 am

Harry's quote
"Reminds me of the BBT."

or Harry's story.

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:14 am

G'day Doum

So! you do not like the quote?

The quote has a double edge blade.

henk21cm · Post by **henk21cm** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:47 am

bystander wrote:I don't think they have had any collisions, yet. They only have one beam circulating. But don't worry, if they do create a black hole, we'll probably never know about it.

No collisions yet, indeed. And we will probably never know whether a black hole is created. The amount of 'material' circulating in the ring is small. IF it is possible to create a black hole, its mass will be minute. As [?]Stephen Hawking[/?] has found out, the evapouration time of a black hole depends on its mass. Yhe smaller the mass, the less the evapuration time. The evapouration time of a black hole made out of two protons is less than minute, not of the order of a minute, rather <smallprefix>second, where there is not yet an invented nomenclature for <smallprefix>.

Suppose it was atto (E-18), than realize what the distance 'matter' can be displaced in such short period of time: less than a proton's radius, let alone distances of the size of the earth.

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:30 am

G'day from the land of ozzzzzzzz

During Z-pinch experiments Neutrons are formed and compacted to extreme densities. These types of experiments can create a minute black hole that can last a split of a second, maybe nano second. Imagine the tools to measure such results.

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:05 pm

The God Particle (higgs boson)

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... nteractive

How can you create a particle with 100 to 200 times the mass of a proton by smashing two protons together?

henk21cm · Post by **henk21cm** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:52 pm

The time needed to evapourate a black hole of one proton mass, due to Hawking radation, is given by:

5120 2 π² G² M³ / (h c² c²)

G = 6.67E-11 [Nm²/kg²], M = 1.67E-27 [kg], h = 6.62E-34 [Js], c=3E8 [m/s]

That is approximately:

1E4 x 1E1 x 40E-22 x 5E-81 / (6E-34 * 81E32) = 200E-98/500E-2 = 4E-97 s

For a two proton mass this time is 8 times faster: 3E-96 s. For a 200 proton mass eight million times faster: 3E-90 s

There are lasers around which can provide a femto second pulse: E-15 s, so a time of E-90 s can not be measured with the current available techniques. Additionally there will be quantum mechanical restrictions which impede measurement of such short time scales: it is shorter than the Planck time, 5E-44 s. A safe conclusion is that the evapouration time is extremely short, so short, we will not notice it. The earth will not be destroyed by a black hole created in the LHC (whatever the feasibility of such action).

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:06 pm

G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz

No black hole.

I was expecting to go out with a big bang

soupphysics · Post by **soupphysics** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:49 pm

They haven't started the collisions yet. The beam has only been going one way by now.

But anyway, the media has sure managed to hype this doomsday CRAP up.

1 - If tiny black holes are created, it would mean that they are also created constantly, every day, in the atmosphere, since high energy particles from space collide with particles in our atmosphere.

There is nothing going on in the accelerator that isn't already going on in the atmosphere. Here they just have a chance to observe it.

So since we are here, we nothing will happen once they start colliding.

2 - As mentioned, any black hole will be so small and evaporate so fast, that it won't have time to "catch" any other particles.

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:30 am

G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz

Sometimes when people come out with extra ordinary stories about the formation of black holes and the end of the world. Reminds me of the dark ages.

This experment will go for 10 years and than maybe updated or something, or maybe become a white elephant.

soupphysics · Post by **soupphysics** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:39 pm

But all the media hype about doomsday did do one good thing.

It created a lot of interest on the LHC.

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:54 pm

This probably scarier than any of the imagined things that could go wrong!

Hackers deface LHC site, came close to turning off particle detector

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:56 pm

G'day from the land of ozzzzzz

They have upgraded their security.

Not that it means much. Most BANKS cannot keep up with Hackers.

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:58 am

G'day from the land of ozzzzzzzz

The National Academies
Physics Milestone: Large Hadron Collider Activated
http://nationalacademies.org/headlines/20090916.html

The Large Hadron Collider is currently running six experiments, and some of the results that scientists hope for include identification of the particle that makes up dark matter; signs of the existence of extra dimensions; and evidence of a particle known as the Higgs boson, which is responsible for generating the masses of the particles in the Standard Model.

Two reports from the National Academies discuss the scientific promise of particle accelerators. Connecting Quarks With the Cosmos: Eleven Science Questions for the New Century describes the importance of technologies like particle accelerators, which can provide answers to the many questions surrounding the creation of the universe. Revealing the Hidden Nature of Space and Time: Charting the Course for Elementary Particle Physics recommends that the United States assume a leadership position in the design, management, and funding of the International Linear Collider, an electron-proton particle accelerator currently in technical design phase, which will work in tandem with the Large Hadron Collider, a proton-proton collider.

Revealing the Hidden Nature of Space and Time: Charting the Course for Elementary Particle Physics
Connecting Quarks with the Cosmos: Eleven Science Questions for the New Century

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:26 pm

LHC shut down! Guess we have to wait!

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic ... the_winter

ScienceNews
Large Hadron Collider shuts down early for the winter
By Ron Cowen
Web edition : Tuesday, September 23rd, 2008

CERN announces that needed repairs, plus high fuel costs, will delay the first planned collisions until next spring.

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:43 pm

G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz

Darn we have to wait months, because of one little leak and a fuse replacement.

What a banger

kovil · Post by **kovil** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:09 am

Henk,
I've always admired your posts and your math, but, this one seems to be going in the wrong direction, in my mind anyway. Here goes:

>> "The time needed to evapourate a black hole of one proton mass, due to Hawking radation, is given by:

5120 2 π² G² M³ / (h c² c²)

G = 6.67E-11 [Nm²/kg²], M = 1.67E-27 [kg], h = 6.62E-34 [Js], c=3E8 [m/s]

That is approximately:

1E4 x 1E1 x 40E-22 x 5E-81 / (6E-34 * 81E32) = 200E-98/500E-2 = 4E-97 s

For a two proton mass this time is 8 times faster: 3E-96 s. For a 200 proton mass eight million times faster: 3E-90 s <<"

So a 2 million proton mass black hole would almost not exist for any appreciable time at all? Sounds like you're saying that Black Holes can't form at all, ever, as the bigger the number of protons making them up, the faster they evaporate. Yes?
And I thought you were mostly mainstream, and believed that black holes exist in some places, like the centers of galaxies.
Where has my understanding gone wrong?

- - -
On an other front,

Harry, >>"This experment will go for 10 years and than maybe updated or something, or maybe become a white elephant.<<"

I was reading that in 20 years or more the LHC will be so radioactive from all the collisions that it will be too 'hot' to go down there to do any work on it. White Hot Elephant !

Starship Asterisk*

Hadron collider CERN

Hadron collider CERN

Re: Hadron collider CERN

A lot of fuzz about nothing

The God Particle

A rather short flash

LHC Shut Down