A small complaint about APOD

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:04 pm

I visit the APOD website everyday and regularly access the archives. Recently, however, I have noticed that more and more non-astronomy-releated pictures are appearing on AOPD, and this, in my opinion, is inappropriate. Granted, artistic photos of mountains and birds and clouds etc are all very nice, but what do they have to do with astronomy? Today there is an enhanced photo of a flock of birds representing what someone thinks it would be like if the sky were filled with stars. What on earth! Come on guys ... let's get back to the aim of the website: astronomy related images. Please.

Thank you,

Paul

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:02 pm

Many people have voiced similar opinions on this same subject in days gone by. Many others, in this forum, have asked about what the sky would look like if our world were located around a star in the middle of a large globular cluster

http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?t=1667

third post here
http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?t=13621

http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?t=11062

So I believe this image, if the starlinge were transposed against a black night sky would be a fair representative of the view from that location

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:20 pm

I accept that some members have posed the question, but I disagree that the 'bird' picture is necessarily what the sky would look like if the earth were located around a star in the middle of a large globular cluster. The objects in the photo are birds, not stars. If the earth were located around a star in the middle of a globular cluster, the whole sky would be full of stars, not just a section of it. I'm sure that a specially created computerized image would have provided a more accurate rendition. The photo with the birds is nothing more than a photo with birds. It has nothing to do with astronomy. Sorry, but that's the way I feel.

... But the bird photo is only one example of many images that have appeared on APOD over recent months that really have little or no relation to astronomy. For example:

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080831.html (nice, but we've seen enough eclipse pics recently)

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080830.html (nice, but not astronomy)

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080821.html (more eclipse pics)

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080801.html (is this really so interesting? I don't think so)

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080722.html (and what on earth has this got to do with astronomy?!!! It should be on MySpace or Facebook, not APOD)

I would like APOD to return to what it was meant to be: a platform for astronomy-related images and information. If we want to see artistic photos of birds and landscapes, we can go to Flickr.

Regards,

Paul

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:59 am

Paul,
I have to agree with your main point in that there are many non astronomical images posted to the Astronomy Picture Of the Day. (your last point definitely there isn't anything astronomical about happy people dancing)

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:20 am

Thank you, BMAONE23. Do you have any idea how I can contact the people who run APOD so that I can explain my feelings to them?

Regards,

Paul

neufer · Post by **neufer** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:56 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:Paul,
I have to agree with your main point in that there are many non astronomical images posted to the Astronomy Picture Of the Day. (your last point definitely there isn't anything astronomical about happy people dancing)

As someone who has spent a career observing the earth from satellites
(including having designed this opaque water vapor channel)
the earth is a planet too.

If you view astronomical photos without wondering
if there "happy life forms dancing" out there somewhere
you are missing a lot.

henk21cm · Post by **henk21cm** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:01 pm

neufer wrote: As someone who has spent a career observing the earth from satellites
(including having designed this opaque water vapor channel)

Art, can you give me a clue how i can recognise the jet stream in your images? Im used to B/W watervapour images, in which the jet stream is predominantly dark (black) like in http://oiswww.eumetsat.org/IPPS/html/Sp ... /index.htm

Is it the red string along your east coast?

neufer · Post by **neufer** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:36 pm

henk21cm wrote:
neufer wrote: As someone who has spent a career observing the earth from satellites
(including having designed this opaque water vapor channel)
Art, can you give me a clue how i can recognise the jet stream in your images? Im used to B/W watervapour images, in which the jet stream is predominantly dark (black) like in http://oiswww.eumetsat.org/IPPS/html/Sp ... /index.htm

Is it the red string along your east coast?

The Metop WV 6.2 micron band is equivalent to the GOES 7.0 micron with the Metop grey/black corresponding to the GOES red/black color.
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/goes/rt/view ... ct=gsc_b11
These both represent the dry regions just below the jet stream but they are somewhat too low in altitude to accurately represent jet stream motion in the animations.

The GOES 6.5 micron band is much closer to the 300 mb. level of the jet stream itself and, hence, better represents actual jet stream motion in the animations. Here, the red/black represents dry stratospheric air brought down by tropopause folding "induced" by the jet stream which lies essential along the southern edge of the dry/moist (red/green) boundary.
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/goes/rt/view ... ct=gsc_b12

http://www.atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca/S ... Hiaper.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/moonhoabinh/it ... upfig6.gif

henk21cm · Post by **henk21cm** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:24 pm

G'day Art,

neufer wrote:The Metop WV 6.2 micron band is equivalent to the GOES 7.0 micron with the Metop grey/black corresponding to the GOES red/black color.

Great, now i known where to look for. "Red or blue" was the question and it's definitively red/black.

neufer wrote:These both represent the dry regions just below the jet stream but they are somewhat too low in altitude to accurately represent jet stream motion in the animations.

Yes, that was my error, thanks for the correction and elucidation. I noticed that in the Reg. satrep images (see e.g. http://www.knmi.nl/satrep) the jet axis more or less coincides with the dark streaks in the 6.2 µm Metop images and thus associated the dark streaks in the 6.2 µm WV channel with the jet axis. I know by trial and error that for the development of waves in depressions the jet stream plays an important role.

Furthermore the GOES images prove your point that understanding earth observations helps you to understand the data from more remote devices like Cassini and Huygens, operating under more alien circumstances.

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:12 pm

Well done, Art! That was a nice piece of self-promoting and a good attempt at distracting from the original point of this thread.

With respect, if you think a video of people dancing is connected with astronomy, then maybe it is you who is missing something and not I. I think you know full well what I'm getting at, so please come down off your high horse.

Having said that, I'm sure that alien anthropologists must find our way of life most fascinating. After all, what can be more entertaining than a species that divides its time between killing, dancing and hunting other species to extinction?

Hank ... if you need advice from Art about his website, please start your own thread. Thanks.

Paul

neufer · Post by **neufer** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:52 pm

PaulM wrote:Well done, Art! That was a nice piece of self-promoting and a good attempt at distracting from the original point of this thread.

With respect, if you think a video of people dancing is connected with astronomy, then maybe it is you who is missing something and not I. I think you know full well what I'm getting at, so please come down off your high horse.

I think an argument can be made on which of us is on a high horse (and which is on a hobby horse).

The issue you bring up has been brought up before to wit the general consensus seems to be that APOD folk have a first amendment right to post whatever pictures they like and that folks like you have a first amendment right to set up an Astronomy Picture of the Hour website if you so wish.

Most of the rest of us here are quite happy that APOD (flawed or otherwise) exists and that we have an opportunity to discuss it.

Doum · Post by **Doum** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:17 pm

I agree with Art. The APOD is great and it bring many discussion,question, opinion, disagrement, and other less great dialogue. That picture show what we cant photograph from here on earth. One deception picture might be a great picture for others. It's the APOD and they do what they think is good. That's all. We have to accept a tiny deception sometime. Cause to others it might be a great picture. Wait for the next one if you dont like this one. It's what i do when it happen to me and i'm not mad at them. Please enjoy it too. It's great what they do.

Now let's see what the next one will be.

CaptBill · Post by **CaptBill** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:59 am

To quote a friend and former co-worker:
"Sometimes you just can't please everybody."
Edgar Boucree

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:59 am

At least you stayed on topic this time. Thanks for that.

Unfortunately, Art felt the need to be rude again. I have no use for that.

Once again, I find myself amongst a group of people who are either incapable of handling constructive criticism or are too blinkered to notice when something needs to be corrected or improved.

Over-acceptance leads to complacency, and complacency hinders progress and change. If you all feel that a video of people dancing, or a photo of someone measuring the moon with a tape measure, are suitable for the APOD website, then we've reached the point of no return when it comes to dumbing down.

I clearly don't belong here.

Thanks,

Paul

Indigo_Sunrise · Post by **Indigo_Sunrise** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:26 pm

FYI, PaulM: (this is a post by one of the maintainers of the APOD)

RJN wrote:I posted that video to APOD. About once a month or so, APOD posts an image that is not strictly related to the classical definition of astronomy or space science. Reasons for this are several, including broadening APOD's reader base. APODs like these, in my opinion, interest people in space, science, and astronomy who might not normally have or follow such interests. In my view, the web appears to stratify people by interests, and many times people in one interest group will not wander into other interest areas. Eclectic APODs like this are therefore an attempt to reach across disciplines.

Additionally, in my view, APOD is also about planet Earth, exploration, and making connections between science and things not classically related to science. In this case, this APOD focussed on humans specifically, who have never been highlighted on APOD before. This also gives APOD a "human" link usable inside of future APODs.

- RJN

And maybe you're right: maybe you "clearly don't belong here"

Buh-bye.......

Dr. Skeptic · Post by **Dr. Skeptic** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:45 pm

Once again, I find myself amongst a group of people who are either incapable of handling constructive criticism or are too blinkered to notice when something needs to be corrected or improved.

APOD and You

Visiting APOD is like engaging in a human relationship - if you abandon it because of imperfections – it’s your life that will be the lesser for it.

This is one of the nicest, friendliest and informative forums on the net; enjoy it for what it is.

I'm saving my complaints for starvation and unjust wars.

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:40 pm

Oh boy! ... I feel so sorry for you guys. Can't any of you take constructive criticism without getting touchy and defensive? I hate to bring you all back down to earth, but have you ever heard of parameters?

I'll continue to visit and enjoy the APOD website, but I have no interest whatsoever in watching videos of people doing silly dances. I'll stick to my belief that such videos do not belong on that site, and I know that many people agree with me. But hey ... don't listen to us. Go ahead and have fun. It will help to speed up the dumbing down process.

And by the way, I didn't know there was such a thing as a 'just' war, never mind an 'unjust' one. As the great Carl Sagan once pointed out, "there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves". All wars are unjust and insane.

Enjoy yourselves.

Paul

jesusfreak16 · Post by **jesusfreak16** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:58 pm

If you don't like APOD,then what's the point of visiting the website?
(just a non-hostile question)

Indigo_Sunrise · Post by **Indigo_Sunrise** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:04 pm

I wish one of the emoticons available to us was the one that shows a tiny individual beating that slightly less tiny upside down horse.......

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:38 pm

"a tiny individual beating that slightly less tiny upside down horse"? Hum ... I don't know that one. Please explain what it means.

Paul

apodman · Post by **apodman** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:45 am

PaulM wrote:"a tiny individual beating that slightly less tiny upside down horse"? Hum ... I don't know that one. Please explain what it means.

A living horse can move, and will generally do so upon being beaten. A dead horse is unable to move of its own volition, and will not do so even when beaten. Hence any phrase about beating a dead horse is a reference to futility. A beating is something that goes on for some time, so a phrase about beating a dead horse is also a reference to persistence. In total, the phrase calls into question the wisdom of persistence in the face of futility.

An emoticon is tiny; therefore, its elements (1. the "individual", and 2. the "horse") are also tiny. According to the late Joseph Campbell, the "individual" represents Everyman in this allegory, and indeed can represent anyone beating a dead horse. The "horse", also according to Campbell, represents a dead horse which may still be beaten though it is dead. The inverted orientation of the horse represents its desire to make the journey to the equine afterlife if and when the beating stops. Astronomers know this symbolism as the 89th constellation Cavallo Morto.

pat-on-mars · Post by **pat-on-mars** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:51 am

PaulM wrote:Oh boy! ... I feel so sorry for you guys. Can't any of you take constructive criticism without getting touchy and defensive?

Constructive criticism goes both ways, Paul. I loved Matt's dance video, and though it had been on the Internet for months, had not seen it until my one indulgence each day (APOD) brought it to my attention. For which I thank Art.

And thanks to all the others who work on APOD, and the contributors.

Don't go away Paul. If those few instances are all you have found in these years of wonderment, then this is truly the best spot on the WWW. All the others are knee deep in hogwash in comparison.

PaulM · Post by **PaulM** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:58 am

Thanks, Pat. You are the first person who has provided a constructive and civilized response to my original criticism, and the first person who has asked me to stay rather than hint that I should leave. Most of the others have been condescendingly rude. Talk about freedom of speech! The past two days have been more like a witch hunt! I know what it must be like now for those of you in the USA who have openly criticised George W Bush throughout his disastrous presidency!

In a democratic society, one has the right to lodge a complaint and have it heard without being whipped or hounded. I appreciate and enjoy the APOD as much as anyone here, and I have given no one reason to think otherwise. I have been an amateur astronomer for over 30 years and have visited the APOD on a daily basis since its conception. Just because I belive that certain items posted recently on the website do not belong there, does not mean that I should be treated like a leper.

Apodman ... in British English we say "to flog a dead horse". I always knew what it meant. I just wanted to see what sort of long-winded diatribe I would get if I implied that I didn't. You outdid yourself!

"Beating a dead horse" is the American version of an expression which goes back to the 16th century (probably much earlier) and was made more widely famous by British politician John Bright (1811-1889) when commenting on the Reform Bill of 1867 which called for more democratic representation in Parliament (there's that nasty word 'democratic' again!). The term therfore pre-dates Joseph Campbell.

I'm not going to leave. I've said my piece and, with two exceptions (Pat being one), I received the defensive and childish responses I expected from people who pass themselves off as being highy intelligent.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread is now closed. Feel free to keep it going if you wish.

Best regards,

Paul

makc · Post by **makc** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:04 pm

@PaulM, how about this for constructive: no matter how many people will agree (or not) with you, RJN will still run APOD as he likes it, and post pics what he thinks fits. So, don't waste your time and move on to something that is interesting to you.

Hans Kanitschar · Post by **Hans Kanitschar** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:46 pm

I found a connection of the dancing video to planetary thinking:

The guy with the clumsy movements in this video went to all corners of the world by plane, thus polluting our planets atmosphere for no result. In addition he probably considers himself a great artist.
This video is proving a lack of ecological understanding and shows the way our planet should not be treated . . .

Hans

Starship Asterisk*

A small complaint about APOD

A small complaint about APOD

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