NO MILLIONS OF YEARS

[KBURT316]

I do have a problem with this idea of millions of years being crammed down everybodies throats. I am a Bible believing christian, and believe that the Earth, the solar system and all that we know, are only about 6,000 years old. To push this "religion" is wrong. Please do post the age of something if you are not sure of how old it really is. Evolutionary teaching is what has caused all of the school shootings, the murder of millions of Jews in Germany, and millions of other deaths that people question why it happened. Instead of stating the "millions of years" that something has been around, how about just stating that it has been around for a very long time? I am hoping to talk more with those interested in learning more. Oh, go check out the new movie, "Expelled".

[Nereid]

First, let me welcome you to this internet discussion forum, KBURT316!

I have moved this first thread (and post) of yours from the Discuss an Astronomy Picture of the Day (APOD) section of this forum, The Asterisk*, to the Asterisk Café section, which is a more appropriate place for it.

While discussion of the age of the Earth, or universe, is certainly fascinating, it is important to keep in mind what this discussion forum is for, and about.

The Rules: read these before posting are pretty clear: "All threads must be questions or comments on astronomy".

One thing this forum most definitely does not permit is discussion of religion; it's beyond our scope.

If there is anything you, or any reader of this post, would like clarified, re the rules, please don't hesitate to send me a message!

Oh, and by the way, from what I have read, that movie is extremely weak in terms of its science, and contains nothing about astronomy at all (but as I haven't seen it, I'd welcome inputs concerning what it does cover, with respect to astronomy).

[KBURT316]

I do want to post that I do love A.P.O.D. and have been watching every one of the pictures for about a decade now. I save as many of the apod pictures to my computer and use them for desktop pictures. I am in awe of how wonderful and colorful the photos are, and how magnificently they have been created. My only point was that when it is posted, many times the description says that it is so far, and is so many years old. I have to disagree. I will go see the movie tomorrow the 26th. Hope everyone has a wonderful day.

[Case]

I believe that the Earth, the solar system and all that we know, are only about 6,000 years old.

I'll try hard to keep this within boundaries of rule by relating only to astronomy.

Those 6,000 years would give earthlings a visible universe of 6,000 lightyears radius. The light from a star 6,000 lightyears away from us, that we see today, would originate 6,000 years ago from that star. First light from an object more distant would only reach us some time in the future, and still be black today.
And yet, I'm able to see galaxies thought to be much further away.

Suppose our bubble is only 12,000 ly wide. Where do we put all the stars and galaxies? There's simply not enough room, imho. Have a look at spiral galaxy NGC 2403. Its size is about 21.9 arcminutes (0.365 degrees) at its widest. 21.9 arcminutes at 6,000 lightyears distance is almost 40 lightyears wide.
A width of 40 lightyears gives a volume of about 5000 cubic lightyears, considering the shape of a galaxy. 30 stars per cubic lightyear is considered very dense, like in the heart of a globular cluster. That would give room for a maximum of 150,000 stars in this galaxy if you really pack 'em tight. Nowhere near the estimated 100,000,000,000 or more of a typical spiral galaxy. It just has to be further away to contain so many stars.

So, I'm curious how your universe works, as I can't see how it could have any galaxies.

[KBURT316]

Ahhh. Now we are getting to the root of the discusion. Scientist in California have brought the speed of light to zero without it losing it's properties. They have concluded that since the speed of light can be brought to zero, it would also conclude that it could also speed up. Now, with that being said, how do we judge distance? If you were in Florida, and I were in say, Texas, and we could pick up a radio frequency in say, Tennesee, how would we know how far the distance was? We would use triangulation. Right? In order to caluclate the distance for one light year, scientists use our distance of the earth during a six month time span of where the earth is in say April, and then in October. If we were to use these same distances, it would be the equivelant of trying to measure something 10 miles away, using only a distance of 16 feet. Not real accurate, is it? Light has the ability to speed up, and slow down. Gravity will cause the light to speed up, even to, say 10 times what we know the speed of light to be. It is not a constant. The truth is out there, as the X files said.

[kilioopu]

I don't know of anyone who has identified polaritrons outside the lab. It would be huge news.

Kburt316, the measurement of astronomical distances is a masterpiece of astronomy. Rather than showing a good amount of hubris, you could turn your question around, eg: How are we able to measure angular movement on the order of tenths of seconds, and how do we determine the accuracy of such measurements?

[Orca]

Ahhh. Now we are getting to the root of the discusion. Scientist in California have brought the speed of light to zero without it losing it's properties. They have concluded that since the speed of light can be brought to zero, it would also conclude that it could also speed up.

This one has also been beaten to death.

When light travels through anything other than a vacuum, it impacts molecules of the medium and is absorbed; then it is emitted to continue its journey. This process takes a certain amount of time.

The speed of light, c, through a vacuum, does not change. What those plucky scientists in California did was come across a medium in which the absorption/emission process takes a very long time; thus the net time for a beam of light to go from point a to point b through the medium was lengthly indeed.

The photons, while traveling between the molecules in this medium, still traveled at c.

Light traveling in space is for all intents and purposes traveling at c; even when it goes through a nebula, rarely such clouds of gas and dust have densities greater than 1000 particles per cubic meter. The air you are breathing right now is something like 10^22 particles per cubic meter.

Also, gravity does not cause light to speed up or slow down; it stretches its wavelength. Massive objects can cause a beam of light to bend, but in fact what's really happening is that light is traveling in a straight line through curved space. Just as the Earth is traveling in a straight line through the space curved by the Sun's gravity.

[KBURT316]

The point that I was trying to make is, the speed of light is not a constant. In order for light to travel millions of light years in a universe as broad as the one that we have, the speed of light has had to of been faster in the past. I believe that the speed of light has slowed down in the past several thousand years. So, if the speed of light was faster then, than it is now, then the light would be getting here now, but have left sooner then. Am I making sense?

[JohnD]

Evolutionary teaching is what has caused ....... the murder of millions of Jews in Germany, and millions of other deaths that people question why it happened.

I may risk my status on this board, kburt, but I resent and refute your statement about the Holocaust. I don't understand the rest of that sentence, but I refer you to the very many people who have been killed in the name of the Christian god.

John

[BMAONE23]

I might have to agree with John on this one point.......More people have been killed (THOU SHALT NOT KILL) in the name of religious differences (conflict/inquisition) than political differences (regional & world wars) thruout world history. Fortunately for religions, they are better at covering up their atrocities so that fewer come to light and those that do tend to take many years of research to uncover the truth.

[Orca]

The point that I was trying to make is, the speed of light is not a constant. In order for light to travel millions of light years in a universe as broad as the one that we have, the speed of light has had to of been faster in the past. I believe that the speed of light has slowed down in the past several thousand years. So, if the speed of light was faster then, than it is now, then the light would be getting here now, but have left sooner then. Am I making sense?

Because you believe in a literal translation of the bible, that the Earth and universe is relatively young, you try to re-define the speed of light - despite all observable evidence that c is indeed a constant in a vacuum - as a variable?

You see the problem here? You aren't using scientific method. You are changing observations to fit pre-conceived beliefs. You forcing the universe to fit into your picture rather than trying to gain understanding of the universe.

If you want to believe that the universe has been here for just a few melinia, I respect your right to do so. I think we should all be allowed to believe what ever we want. You just can't call your beliefs science if you aren't going to use scientific method.

And that is why this conversation belongs on a religious philosophy board rather than an astronomy board.

[KBURT316]

I do have to agree with you all. The Christian history is very black. But, it is not in agreement with the teaching of It's founder. You never judge a world view by it's abuse. You judge a worldview by it's founding person's teaching. Hitler was a seminary student when he was growing up, but when he went to college, he learned about evolution, denounced his faith in God, and then went on to do what he did. I would like to voice that many more people have been killed in the name of athiesm than that in the christian world view. I have been studying this for a number of years, and it all makes sense. If the bible is true, then evolution is false. But, if evolution is true, then the bible is false, there is no moral law, your and my life has no meaning, and we can go around and kill one another and do the horrific things that some people do and there is no moral right or wrong. Please, I challege you to prove me wrong. Look deep in your heart and really come to terms with evolution and look at it as a whole. There is so many resorces out there to back up my claims. The question is, do you want the truth? If you don't want the truth, then it doesn't matter. But, if you do want the truth, and find out what is really real, then, you can seek and you shall find.

[SittingDownMan]

Found on the 'net, musings on a temporary, local, dying but still annoying
little cult:

"Y'know, it's a good thing Vlad the Impaler wasn't a Latin Emperor. Can
you imagine all those nuns running around waving little dolls with pained
expressions and a stick up their bums?
I wonder what the little dolls would have been doing with their hands?"


Incidentally:
http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/a ... le397.html
I found that one using http://www.answers.com and this URL as my search query.
http://tinyurl.com/5herzv
I've tinyurled it for economy of electrons. Gotta save electrons, even if Bubba the OP thinks they don't exist.

Anyone starting a religion based on "The Hobbit", yet? There's morality,
a guaranteed genuine Bad Guy and some begetting in it. It must be ripe
for a cult following. (There *must* be begetting. Aint they got families?)


And how are the Jedi Knights doing? That's an officially recognised
religion in UKland. More than a hundred thousand "believers". May the
Force be ever with you.

Anyone thinking of becoming a Fek'lhrite? I suppose that particular form
or teenage rebellion would only appeal to the uncanny offspring of a
Strekky and and Ubergeek. I wonder if it would be fun getting Fek'lhr
recognised in the next census?
And would joshuaites and maryamites denounce us?

"...waving a doll with a stick up its bum..." Classic.

SDM.

[makc]

The point that I was trying to make is, the speed of light is not a constant.

In '45, americans made a strong point that speed of light is constant, by burning thousands of people in instant. Twice. But hey, let's just pretend it never happened, and go back to good old times when we could make points by burning people at stakes, one by one.

†

[Martin]

KBURT316 wrote:

The Christian history is very black. But, it is not in agreement with the teaching of It's founder.

Who is the founder?

You never judge a world view by it's abuse.

Obviously, you have not taken your anti-evil medication today?

Hitler was a seminary student when he was growing up, but when he went to college, he learned about evolution, denounced his faith in God, and then went on to do what he did.

Since when does no religion equate to a recipe for mass murder? What army has not called on its GOD(s) for victory in battle?

If the bible is true, then evolution is false.

How does one disprove the other?

if evolution is true, then the bible is false, there is no moral law, your and my life has no meaning, and we can go around and kill one another and do the horrific things that some people do and there is no moral right or wrong.

So, my wanting to do NO harm to others is based on if YOU perceive the bible as being truthful?

Are you suggesting GOD did not exist prior to the bible?

How would GOD reply if you told GOD that everything GOD is and does is subject to your bible stories approval?

If the peace-loving non-conquering, Roman empire's King James version (now in paperback) Bible was proven to be an unkown collection of 2k+ year old stories, from toothless authors unkown, selected from an unkown process by persons unkown, which rejected and destroyed an unknown quantity of other stories about GOD that did not meet the unkown criteria, directly impacting an unkown amount of wealth and power, influencing the control of an unkown number of people -If this were all proven to be less than truthful.......chaos and extreme violence would result?

It would suddenly turn people like you into persons that would want to harm others?

Please, I challenge you to prove me wrong.

Do you think I haven't already accomplished this?

The question is, do you want the truth?

The truth would leave you dazed and confused. I suspect you truly do not seek truth. I think you would turn away from it and deny it.

[JohnD]

All,
I've been slow here. I thought that kburt was an individual with an odd idea that Evolution=Nazi-ism. In fact it is just that he has seen the film "Expelled: no intelligence allowed", which makes the same association. If I were Evolution I would sue.

He is one up on me, as I have not seen the film. I should, else I am not competent to criticise, but the film reviews have been so universally bad that I won't bother. There are more important things to do.

John

[makc]

So, my wanting to do NO harm to others is based on if YOU perceive the bible as being truthful?

Are you suggesting GOD did not exist prior to the bible?

How would GOD reply if you told GOD that everything GOD is and does is subject to your bible stories approval?

Hey, this is one of those endless noone-is-right discussions I enjoy so much... elsewhere. So pity, religion is against the rules of this forum I hear steps of Nereid already, with chains an lock for this thread.

[bystander]

The point that I was trying to make is, the speed of light is not a constant.

In '45, americans made a strong point that speed of light is constant, by burning thousands of people in instant. Twice. But hey, let's just pretend it never happened, and go back to good old times when we could make points by burning people at stakes, one by one. †

c, the speed of light in a vacuum, is indeed a constant. But light, as a particle (photon), will slow down when it enters a denser medium. Kind of like shooting a bullet into water. Its just physics.

[Nereid]

Let's keep discussions in this, the Asterisk* forum, focussed on astronomy, shall we?

Thread closed.