The Value of Digg to APOD

[RJN]

Over the past month or so Jerry (Bonnell) and I have linked our APODs to Digg.com. The reasons for this are (at least) threefold. First, this gives a chance for APOD readers to express their relative like or dislike for specific APODs, clicking on the "digg it" link for APODs they like. Second, Jerry and I use the amount of Diggs reported to glean more information as to what topics are particularly popular with APOD readers, which may affect future APOD image choices.

Last, and the reason we currently use Digg as APOD's popularity meter, is that APODs that are particularly popular make it to the front page(s) of Digg.com, which gains these APODs a larger audience than before. Indeed, possibly millions of Digg readers are then alerted to this APOD, although only a few hundred thousand may click through. To the best of our knowledge, Digg is the most popular "bookmarking" site for doing this, routinely being ranked in the top 100 of all web sites by quantcast.com. By comparison, APOD's rank is currently just under 10,000. Therefore, the Digg link allows APOD to "use" Digg as a sort of free advertising engine.

In fact, I note that as of yesterday, APOD has made it to the front page of Digg every day for the past 25 days. People who work at Digg tell me that this is unusual for any online publication, even for the New York Times (for example), and I think it may even be a record. I think APODs "success" on Digg, though, it due more to its single prominent placement of the Digg link that to anything else.

But is this "Digg success" of value to APOD? I am curious to see how others perceive the Digg link on APOD. Several Digg readers appear to be increasingly annoyed that APOD is so popular on Digg. Also, several APOD readers appear to be increasingly annoyed of the non-astronomical nature of the many of the comments that appear on Digg. I am due to visit Digg HQ next month, partly because I am trying to better understand if this is a good thing for APOD to continue. Thoughtful advice from dedicated APOD readers is solicited.

- RJN

[Martin]

Is there a user limit?

[RJN]

My understanding is that a single user can have a digg recorded for a single article (an APOD in this case) once. More information can surely be found on the digg.com site.

[Martin]

Can I expect to see more creative advertising on APOD?

[RJN]

Martin,

I am not sure what you mean by "creative advertising on APOD." Did you mean "creative advertising OF APOD"? Or are you referring to the Digg link taking the reader to a page with advertising?

About the later, APOD as you likely know has for many years linked parts of its hypertext to pages that contain advertising. Such a commercial link is placed when the information at the link is deemed to carry sufficient and unique value. No money ever changes hands -- the NASA APOD pages through http://apod.nasa.gov/ are not commercial and do not accept paid advertisements.

Even so, APOD's editors have been reluctant in the past to link APOD to Digg (for example) because of Digg's online advertising. We do, when possible, try to protect our readers from advertising. However, when the new main NASA 2.0 pages at http://www.nasa.gov/ came out a few months ago, THOSE pages linked to Digg, and so we felt that was enough of a precedent for APOD to follow suit.

- RJN

[Arramon]

I dont pay much attention to it... but if APOD uses this service to gain more viewers, so be it. I've done the same by just registering my websites with Internet search engines (ie Google, Yahoo, AOL, etc).

And that's great that APOD is gaining more attention than the News sites that have been pumping out more garbage than the chinese in space, so I'm glad to see people are more interested in the expanse of space than the expanse of the corporate pockets, the war on terror, or egotistical mindsets of execs reaping billions of dollars in profits we're always hearing about in the news. Sorry about the chinese rip... we Americans poop out alot of junk in space too. >.<

I say keep the Digg It link, although my internet at work filters it.

As for adding other links similar to Digg's, if the site hits for APOD have increased dramatically, maybe no other similar links are necessary. The sites we are sent to from the Explanation sections don't bother me either. Those actually help detail more of what's being shown in the images posted each day.

[zen-fro]

I haven't bothered with the Digg link because I read all APODs avidly and daily. Seems like it's just gilding the lily to me....

[l3p3r]

I don't use digg, but I think any excuse to expose the content of APOD to the masses is worthwhile. What sort of vote numbers are needed to get on the front page? Thousands?

[dkimball]

I think using Digg is just trite. The Digg site has content that is not something I want to de exposed to. I have had APOD as my internet home page for over 6 years. Having links to sites with questionable material is just not worth it. I would rather see a counter on the APOD site for every time some goes to APOD.

[tonesw]

I have had APOD as my home page since 1996, so I don't need Digg to tell me to look at it. If it helps you determine what people like, that's fine, but don't you have a hit counter that will do the same?

[Chris Peterson]

I never click on the Digg links, and don't bother with the Digg site. It's a kind of social networking I'm not interested in. But it certainly doesn't bother me to visit sites that have Digg links- why should it? If it provides some value to you, as the APOD authors, great. It can be viewed as either useful, or harmless. I don't see why there should be any objections.

[RJN]

Thanks everyone for your comments. Here are some specific answers.

What sort of vote numbers are needed to get on the front page? Thousands?

Although Digg does not disclose this proprietary information, my experience indicates that presently it takes about 100 Diggs within one day to push an APOD to Digg's front page, making a link to that APOD link suddenly visible to many Digg readers. Since APOD does several 100,000 page views a day, this works out to less than 0.1 percent of all APOD readers.

Up until APOD reaches the front page of Digg, the Digg counter appears to measure APODs popularity almost exclusively to APOD readers. After APOD reaches Digg's front page, APOD's Digg counter appears to rise more quickly and be driven primarily by Digg readers.

So while APOD's Diggs remain below 100, your click may count greatly. Just a small fraction of APOD readers clicking appreciation for a favored APOD can help that APOD become better known.

don't you have a hit counter that will do the same?

We might be able to kludge up a non-commercial hit counter. This approach would indeed show relative popularity between APODs but not have the additional advantage of gaining free exposure for APOD to a wider audience.

- RJN

[Martin]

A site counter I think would be useful information. My guess is that less than 3% of APOD viewers are clickin the diggit?

[bobble warp]

Aww, come on guys. The Digg button is small, inconspicuous, and doesn't draw attention from the picture or caption. It'll generate interest in astronomy and make more people aware of this great collection of neat-o space pictures. Digg itself is just a harmless news aggregator, and if it'll sew interest in the site, I think it's a great idea!!!

[wr-astro]

Hello Robert

You gave 3 reasons:

• gives the APOD readers a chance to express their relative like or dislike for specific APODs by clicking on the "digg it" link for APODs they like

  I don't know digg and I never heard (and you never explained at APOD) when and why one should click on the commercial DIGG link. Especially not that one should do it just if one likes the APOD.
  To be able to express anything at the commercial DIGG site, one must give away one's full personal data including email address, full postal address and birthday.
  DIGGs Privacy Policy http://digg.com/privacy is IMO a mixture of marketing and misleads. They start with

  Digg is founded on the principles of helping people to discover ...

  but the first thing they do is to make money by uploading unrequested ads. So this must be the primary intend of the commercial DIGG service.
  There they also write:

  We only collect personal information that is relevant to the purpose of our website, which is to enable users to discover and share information with one another. This information allows us to provide you with a customized and efficient experience.

  Why must one provide one's full personal data to "enable users to discover and share information with one another" ? This exchange is done via the comments. Here an eMail address would be more than sufficient if a direct personal contact other than a private msg is required. So these personal data must be "relevant to the [true] purpose of [their] website". This might be "just" displaying user optimized ads. But it might be also selling these info to others. At least they don't exclude such activities in their Privacy Policy. They claim to not give away the email address, but they don't claim that they don't do it with the other personal data. And we all know what this can mean in the worst case.
  I'll rather go to hell than giving away these personal data to an obscure commercial web service just to be able to leave a comment on an APOD.

• Jerry and I use the amount of Diggs reported to glean more information as to what topics are particularly popular with APOD readers

  In reality most APOD users will click on the commercial DIGG link just out of curiosity (because they want to know where the link will takes them to) or at most to see if there are any comments. So the commercial DIGG count has not necessaily anything to do with how much the APOD users like the APOD. In the first case the DIGG counts will decrease soon. In the second case the DIGG counts will decrease as soon as the APOD users will notice that there are no interesting comments. DIGG does just count the clicks on their link and not the number how often the APOD was displayed. So DIGG should pay APOD depending on the number.
  IMO it does serve this reason less than well. To serve this goal you can also take a look at the APOD Discuss that is free of commercial pollution. I also thought that you want to spread science this way and not to just show the APOD users images you think they will like.

• we currently use Digg as APOD's popularity meter ...

  I don't care at all if APOD is on the front page(s) of Digg.com. DIGG is not any significant measure for anything. If APOD would make it to the goggle search page, it would be something significant. But you are totally wrong when you really think that

  the Digg link allows APOD to 'use' Digg as a sort of free advertising engine

  in reallity the commercial DIGG service is (ab)using APOD as free advertising engine for selling ads.

I don't see any need or real benefit for the APOD users to know how many other users clicked on the commercial DIGG link and for including the commercial DIGG service intro the APOD at all. As soon as most APOD users find out that the primary intend of the commercial DIGG service is to upload and display ads and to collect detailed user infos (especilly if someone finds out that these get abused) most will stop clicking on the commercial DIGG links. IMO the link to the APOD Discuss is more than sufficent.


In the meanwhile one has to click away the commercial DIGG service cookie save msgs 4x when one enters APOD and an additional 2x for every additional APOD page and up to two dozen times (including 4th party cookies) if one actually enters DIGG ! This is more than annoying.

The DIGG line of the current APOD looks like:
9 diggs [digg-it-tiny.gif]

that is included by the HTML script code:
<script type="text/javascript">
digg_url = 'http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080404.html'; digg_skin = 'compact'; </script>
<script src="http://digg.com/tools/diggthis.js" type="text/javascript"></script>

which effectivly creates the following HTML code:
<http://digg.com/tools/diggthis.php?u=ht ... &s=compact#>

If you don't insist on having to show the number of diggs on the APOD page (it can still be viewed on the commercial DIGG page for the APOD), you could also include just the following HTML code:
<a href="http://digg.com/space/Layers_in_Aureum_Chaos">
<img src="http://digg.com/img/digg-it-tiny.gif"></a>
to probably get the same funcionality ("Layers_in_Aureum_Chaos" has to be replaced by the titel of the current APOD and replacing spaces by "_" in the title). This does not require any commercial DIGG service cookies if the APOD user is not explicitly clicking on the commercial DIGG service links.

Clear skies
Wolfgang

[MC]

To Wolfgang,

You are certainly truthful when you state that you do not know how Digg works. And I don't even use that site. The first half of your post is a rant on why you dislike Digg and on how it is a horrible hate machine. You state:

To be able to express anything at the commercial DIGG site, one must give away one's full personal data

While this may be true or not, no one is asking you to "express anything at the commercial DIGG site." So we can already throw away that half of your post.

Your next argument has you confused over how diggs are counted and who is to digg an article. Your argument is:

APOD users will click on the commercial DIGG link just out of curiosity [...] or at most to see if there are any comments

This does not add to an article's digg count. Only users of Digg, who already know what that button means and does, will add to the number. This is such that the number is an accurate representation of who, among those who have seen the article and are Digg members, likes the picture.

You then go off attempting to explain how Digg works even though you yourself stated "I don't know digg." And if you think "DIGG should pay APOD depending on the number [of clicks]," then you don't know how the Internet works, let alone Digg.

I don't care at all if APOD is on the front page(s) of Digg.com

And good for you! I honestly don't care either, but guess what? (And this is the main point you should understand.) The Digg link is not for you. It is for APOD readers who are members of Digg (and Digg members who are becoming APOD readers) to express that they like the picture and, as you quoted twice in your post, for Jerry and Robert.

Quoth you quoting:

Jerry and I use the amount of Diggs reported

we currently use Digg as APOD's popularity meter

If you are having browser troubles (an honest issue, though even this bulletin board uses cookies) several possible solutions are in this thread.


Now back to the discussion at hand, I agree with the reasons for providing the link put forth in the original post by Robert. It is a good gauge of what topics are popular and I think exposing the masses to science and space is a noble goal. It also says more than a simple hit counter would as while thousands may visit a given site it doesn't mean that they like it.

That said however, the link on the APOD page itself may not necessarily be needed, though it is very convenient to digg a picture so easily. As long as the picture gets submitted to the site (providing it is a good picture) it will gain more diggs. The problem is getting the ball rolling so that the average Digg user can see the article. This is the main benefit I see in providing the link on the APOD page as APOD readers who are Digg members will already have the chance to digg it without having to search through the lot of upcoming, new articles submitted.

To test its necessity I would suggest removing the Digg link from the APOD page for a week while still having the pictures submitted to the site. The number of diggs will still be visible to Bob and Jerry, though now they would have to actively go out and look for the article on Digg's site. If the link's ease of use and ability to direct users to where to digg are that helpful to its number of diggs, then it should be evident through a dramatic decrease in digg count.

You could also use Wolfgang's hybrid idea at the end of his post. It is a good mix that would still link to the Digg article. You have to decide what is actually the "bad" element here (if there is one). Linking to Digg? The browser technicals like cookies and javascript? The Digg comments? I honestly don't think any of these are bad and think things are fine the way they are. But that's just me. The worst I see happening is Digg members getting burnt out on APOD pictures (which wouldn't happen to AOPD readers, obviously).

Concerning the non-astronomical nature of comments on Digg, I wouldn't worry about them. Digg users can discuss on Digg and APOD readers can discuss here. Good luck in meeting with the Digg people Robert. I hope you can determine the path that will benefit everyone in the long run.

[BMAONE23]

To Wolfgang,


Your next argument has you confused over how diggs are counted and who is to digg an article. Your argument is:

APOD users will click on the commercial DIGG link just out of curiosity [...] or at most to see if there are any comments

This does not add to an article's digg count. Only users of Digg, who already know what that button means and does, will add to the number. This is such that the number is an accurate representation of who, among those who have seen the article and are Digg members, likes the picture.

This would indicate that If you DO want your DIGG to count, you need to register and give away ALL your personal information as was previously stated

[neufer]

I note that as of yesterday, APOD has made it to the front page of Digg every day for the past 25 days. People who work at Digg tell me that this is unusual for any online publication, even for the New York Times (for example), and I think it may even be a record. I think APODs "success" on Digg, though, it due more to its single prominent placement of the Digg link that to anything else.

But is this "Digg success" of value to APOD? I am curious to see how others perceive the Digg link on APOD.

I personally have no problem with the "Digg success"
so long as it doesn't increase the level of SPAM
(particularly pornographic SPAM which seems high as of late).

[bobble warp]

I personally have no problem with the "Digg success"
so long as it doesn't increase the level of SPAM
(particularly pornographic SPAM which seems high as of late).

The spam on this forum is a direct result of how easy it is to register for an account. Some people above have criticized digg.com's registration process, saying you have to give away too much info, but it's this more difficult registration process that helps keeps digg spam-free, despite its popularity.

Here, check out these digg comments on today's picture:

http://digg.com/space/Wisps_Surrounding ... d_Nebula_2

They all love APOD!! and no spam in sight.

[RJN]

Thanks everyone. There is a possibility that we could substitute different social bookmarking sites for Digg. That way, possibly, a different group would become better aware of APOD. Possibly we could even rotate them. If so, are there any suggestions about which ones (social bookmarking sites) would be particularly relevant? - RJN

[Arramon]

I would be very disappointed if someone says Myspace or anything like that... keep the apples seperate from oranges and the peaches away from the pears.

Being social about Astronomy is AWESOME... but including social networking sites that allow the type of content most of us are DISCOURAGED from checking out is a really big no-no.

Are there any Astronomy networking sites? SETI@home site? Google Earth Forums? Or are you just looking for a better way to advertise APOD and its content to a more wider audience?

As for Page hit counters, that may be harder than you think if you want to actually keep count of each and every APOD image for every day of the year. You'd then have to register a new hit counter for each APOD image for that day. Unless you had a MAIN hit counter just for the Archive listing, which shows the entire list of APOD images for each day. That way people could see how many times the Archive listing is viewed, but that gives no data for the amount of hits the individual images get (so I guess Digg It is only good to show hit counters for each individual image).

Like I said... I dont use Digg It, and never will. I know where APOD is at. I can check the forums to see which APOD images are being discussed, and I can search on Google to re-find the link to this APOD site if I ever lose it (which I've had to do once or twice). =b

[JohnD]

I'd say use digg, if you think AND can get evidence that it increases the exposure to and interest of people in, science, in a benign way.

I have to say that a brief scan of the last three pages of Digg are not reassuring. I find a satisfactory number of APODs, but the digg score of all entries, including those, wobbles about 500. The ones that stand out in that sample include 'real pictures of nuclear holocaust' (1000+ diggs) and 'Scientist finds God' (2000+ diggs). Those either indicate unhealthy interests or vote packing.

John

[Martin]

The registration process might be more difficult and it may hinder spamming however, that might be just a desirable side-effect. The more information any site has on its viewers/members results in a very useful tool when marketing that information.

There are other creative ways to generate mass exposure.

Thank you for the APOD's. I would feel at a loss without them.

[geckzilla]

I recommend you consider your target audience. If you're aiming for that 20-something audience, things like Digg and other social networking sites could be very good for bringing in those types of people.

As for worries about digg being a commercial website... well, no one said they didn't want to make money for providing their service. I wouldn't worry about it. "Personal" information they collect is more about gathering statistics for them than anything. It's more weird when websites of Digg's size don't gather those statistics because it makes them blind to what their users actually do on their sites and what kind of users they cater to.

Lastly, about this forum and getting a lot of new users due to the Digg link: I've suggested it before and I'll suggest it again -- upgrade to phpbb3. It can help a lot with administration of the board and is much more hardy against security threats since version 3 was built from the ground up to be as resilient as possible against spammers and users with malicious intent. My offer for aiding in this transition still stands.

[apodman]

I have visited APOD daily for ten years without digg and spread the word myself.

I have *never* visited digg despite being invited to do so by my "friends" at APOD every day - not because of the offensive link, not because of the gag-me cutesy name, not because of the commercial sell-out and implied affiliation, but because I have no reason even to wonder why I would be slightly interested in what they have.

Still thumbs down. I agree with the contributor who asked why gild the lily. I am glad to hear that only 0.1% of APOD visitors take the bait - that leaves 99.9% still thinking for themselves.