Distant Solar System (APOD 18 Feb 2008)

emc · Post by **emc** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:19 pm

bystander,

Doesn't the lack of proof become a "no" by default? Or am I taking science too literally?

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:31 pm

I wouldn't think a lack of proof means "NO". We can have two conflicting null hypothesis.

1. Life exists on other planets.

- or -

2. Life exists only on Earth.

Since neither of these hypothesis can be proven, I don't believe you can say "yes" or "no".

But then, I'm agnostic. I'm used to the position, "I don't know!"

emc · Post by **emc** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:43 pm

bystander,

"I don't know" is a good answer... it way out weighs anything in my "know" category. Your point is well received.

Andy Wade · Post by **Andy Wade** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:27 pm

emc wrote:bystander,

Doesn't the lack of proof become a "no" by default? Or am I taking science too literally?

Isn't there just a level of probability or improbability depending on whether you're a glass half empty or half full kind of person.
Calculating it accurately either way is the 'don't know' part.
Imagining that there is life elsewhere in the universe is fanciful but IMO it is no bad thing to imagine it. Surely it's one of the reasons we reach for the stars in the first place.
Personally, I like the idea -therefore I imagine.

Actually the 'infinite improbability' thing brings us rather neatly back to the Heart of Gold spaceship that Zaphod Beeblebrox nicked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_I ... lity_Drive

It's the use of terms like 'without all that tedious mucking about in hyperspace' that endears it to me

neufer · Post by **neufer** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:53 pm

emc wrote:bystander, "I don't know" is a good answer... it way out weighs anything in my "know" category. Your point is well received.

"One might be capable of making an intelligent guess" is a better answer, IMO.
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The Drake Equation for how many intelligent,
communicating civilizations there are in our galaxy.:
http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/To ... ation.html
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LIFE, n. : In a general sense, that state of animals and plants, or of an organized being, in which its natural functions and motions are performed, or in which its organs are capable of performing their functions. [Webster Dictionary (1828 edition)]
................................
Martian rovers Spirit & Opportunity are communicating & are capable of performing their functions.
Are Spirit & Opportunity "alive" in some sense?
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/ ... _maps.html
------------------------------------

From Primordial Soup to the Prebiotic Beach
An [October, 1996] interview with exobiology pioneer, Dr. Stanley L. Miller, University of California San Diego
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/NM/miller.html

<<Q:Some 4.6 billion years ago the planet was a lifeless rock, a billion years later it was teeming with early forms of life. Where is the dividing line between pre-biotic and biotic Earth and how is this determined?

Dr. Miller: We start with several factors. One, the Earth is fairly reliably dated to 4.55 billion years. The earliest evidence for life was 3.5 billion years based on findings at the Apex formation in Western Australia. A new discovery reported in the journal Nature indicates evidence for life some 300 million years before that. We presume there was life earlier, but there is no evidence beyond that point.
....................................
Q:So while these are potential sources of organic compounds they are not essential for the creation of life on Earth?

Dr. Miller: As long as you have those basic chemicals and a reducing atmosphere, you have everything you need. People often say maybe some of the special compounds came in from space, but they never say which ones. If you can make these chemicals in the conditions of cosmic dust or a meteorite, I presume you could also make them on the Earth. I think the idea that you need some special unnamed compound from space is hard to support. You have to consider separately the contributions of meteors, dust and comets. The amount of useful compounds you are going to get from meteorites is very small. The dust and comets may provide a little more. Comets contain a lot of hydrogen cyanide, a compound central to prebiotic synthesis of amino acids as well as purines. Some HCN came into the atmosphere from comets. Whether it survived impact, and how much, are open to discussion. I'm skeptical that you are going to get more than a few percent of organic compounds from comets and dust. It ultimately doesn't make much difference where it comes from. I happen to think prebiotic synthesis happened on the Earth, but I admit I could be wrong. There is another part of the story. In 1969 a carbonaceous meteorite fell in Murchison Australia. It turned out the meteorite had high concentrations of amino acids, about 100 ppm, and they were the same kind of amino acids you get in prebiotic experiments like mine. This discovery made it plausible that similar processes could have happened on primitive Earth, on an asteroid, or for that matter, anywhere else the proper conditions exist.

http://www.fredparker.com/mp00402.htm
....................................
Q: Tell us about your recent work and the lagoon idea.

Dr. Miller: The primitive Earth had big oceans, but it also had lakes, lagoons and beaches. Our hypothesis is that the conditions may have been ideal on these beaches or drying lagoons for prebiotic reactions to occur, for the simple reason that the chemicals were more concentrated in these sites than in the middle of the ocean. Our most recent research tackled the problem of making pyrimidines- uracil and cytosine, in prebiotic conditions. For some reason it just doesn't work very well under dilute conditions. We showed that it works like a charm once you get things concentrated and dry it out a bit. This changed my outlook on where to start looking for prebiotic reactions. Another example is our work with co-enzyme A. The business end of co-enzyme A is called pantetheine. We showed you could make this under these kind of pre-biotic "dry beach" conditions. We found that you didn't need it to be very hot, you can make it at 40 degrees C. This indicates the ease with which some of this chemistry can take place.

San Francisco Chronicle
Giant step toward artificial life
Sabin Russell, Chronicle Medical Writer
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... NUKKE4.DTL
.
(01-24) 12:13 PST SAN FRANCISCO -- <<American scientists have built from scratch a synthetic chromosome containing all the genetic material needed to produce a primitive bacterium - a giant step toward the creation of artificial life.
.
The feat is described in an online edition of the journal Science released Thursday by researchers at the J. Craig Venter Institute in Rockville, Md. Venter is the Bay Area-born maverick whose laboratory techniques in the late 1990s led to the speedy decoding of the human genome, the entire set of genetic instructions for making a person.
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Now, a team led by Dr. Hamilton Smith, director of the Venter Institute's Synthetic Biology Group, has manufactured from laboratory chemicals a ring of DNA containing all the genes of Mycoplasma genitalium - the tiniest bacteria ever found.
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That means the team is tantalizingly close to creating an artificial form of life that could replicate itself using these machine-made genes. The plan is to slip the synthetic chromosome inside the microscopic skin of one of the Mycoplasma bacterium, replacing its natural genome with the machine-made one and sparking the creature into a life form that can reproduce itself.
.
"If we'd done that already, we'd be letting people know. That's not the kind of secret you keep," Venter said by telephone from Davos, Switzerland. "But I am virtually certain it will happen this year."
.
The work is not merely a demonstration of laboratory finesse, Venter insisted, but a step toward development of technologies that could grow fuel in bacterial vats and speed cures for diseases. "It puts a lot of power in the hands of humans," he said. And there is the matter of bragging rights of mythological proportions. Mere mortals have yet to lay claim to creating life.
.
In August, the Venter Institute team reported in the journal Science that they had performed a successful transplant of a natural genome by removing the chromosome from one Mycoplasma species and implanting it into another, which began replicating copies of the first species. Venter said there are still several technical hurdles to pass before a similar procedure could work with the synthetic chromosome.
.
Although such a creature might pass for artificial life, it would not be entirely synthetic because only the genes would be machine made. In addition, scientists who work with much smaller viruses can now, almost routinely in elite laboratories, produce living viruses using laboratory-designed genes.
.
What is different here is that the bacterial genome Venter's lab has fabricated is about 20 times larger than the longest viral genome ever made by machines. Consisting of sequences of paired chemicals represented by the letters A, C, T and G, a computer printout of the Mycoplasma chromosome fills 147 single-spaced pages of paper. The actual synthetic chromosome, Venter said, is "the largest molecule ever built by humans, by a large margin."
.
And unlike human-made viruses, a synthetic bacterium would be able to make copies of itself by cell division. Viruses must hijack the machinery of living cells to replicate, a reason many biologists consider them infectious agents rather than living things.
.
Once the laboratory produces living, replicating bacteria using this artificial chromosome, Venter scientists plan to strip away genes systematically, to find how few are truly necessary to sustain life.>>

--------------------------------------------

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:06 pm

neufer wrote:"One might be capable of making an intelligent guess" is a better answer, IMO.

Oh, I agree. We should be able to make an intelligent guess. I believe the probability of other intelligent life even within this galaxy is significant, but still, "I don't know!"

Robert G. Ingersoll

The Agnostic does not simply say, "I do not know." He goes another step and says with great emphasis, "You do not know."

emc · Post by **emc** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:07 pm

If an alien life form from a distant solar system were to approach you what would you say to him/her/it? (just for fun we can presume communication is readily possible)

1. What the hell are you doing here?
2. Welcome to earth, can I get you a cup of coffee?... beer?... some peanuts perhaps?
3. Where did you come from and how did you get here?
4. OK, where is that pesky Allen Funt?

neufer · Post by **neufer** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:48 pm

emc wrote:If an alien life form from a distant solar system were to approach you what would you say to him/her/it? (just for fun we can presume communication is readily possible)

1. What the hell are you doing here?
2. Welcome to earth, can I get you a cup of coffee?... beer?... some peanuts perhaps?
3. Where did you come from and how did you get here?
4. OK, where is that pesky Allen Funt?

Allen Funt?!

Ed, welcome to the 21st century, can I get you a café latté?... wine cooler?... a granola bar perhaps?

emc · Post by **emc** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:31 pm

OK, it is a bit dated... I was afraid my candid comment would not work in today's cafe'latte' world... but space travel is time-relative right?... I mean these space aliens have got to be OLD right? unless they can transmutate time... then they would easily get the joke anyway... so I don't see a problem with out-of-date references... at least when it comes to space aliens.

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:50 pm

Yes, but only "old geezers" would think to make that joke.

You're dating yourself, Ed. But then, I guess I'm dated, too. I understood it. Maybe I'm a space alien.

emc · Post by **emc** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:00 pm

Hey, bystander, if your a space alien there are a few trillion things I need to go back in time to correct... can you help me transmutate out?

I did date myself didn't I... but I happen to know that I am five years younger than neufer. 8)

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:26 pm

Sorry, been trying to get back, myself, to no avail.

neufer · Post by **neufer** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:52 pm

emc wrote:I did date myself didn't I... but I happen to know that I am five years younger than neufer. 8)

At least when "I" date myself I do it with astrological precision.

(From someone who remembers as a kid listening to Edgar Bergen & Charlie McCarthy on the radio.)

<<The War of the Worlds is an episode of the American radio drama anthology series Mercury Theatre on the Air. It was performed as a Halloween special on October 30, 1938 and aired over the CBS Radio network. Directed by Orson Welles, the episode was an adaptation of H. G. Wells' classic novel The War of the Worlds. The first half of the 60 minute broadcast was presented as a series of news bulletins, and suggested to many listeners that an actual Martian invasion was in progress. Many listeners missed the repeated notices that the broadcast was entirely fictional, partly because the Mercury Theatre ran opposite the popular Chase and Sanborn Hour over the Red Network of NBC, hosted by Don Ameche and featuring comic ventriloquist Edgar Bergen. About 15 minutes into the Chase and Sanborn program the first comic sketch ended and a musical number began, and many listeners presumably began tuning around the dial at that point. According to the American Experience program The Battle Over Citizen Kane, Welles knew the schedule of the Chase & Sanborn show, and scheduled the first report from Grover's Mill at the 12 minute mark to heighten the audience's confusion. As a result, some listeners happened upon the CBS broadcast at the exact point the Martians emerge from their spacecraft.>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of ... 28radio%29

emc · Post by **emc** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:05 pm

Cool! I was thinking about WOW with the (1.) response choice for the space alien encounter. How cool is that... 8) maybe neufer is a space alien with receptor skills beyond our typical own. Hey, maybe that helps explain his [astrolognomical] precision capability?

emc · Post by **emc** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:10 pm

bystander wrote:Sorry, been trying to get back, myself, to no avail.

That's OK, we may have more help sneaking around in this forum than initially meets the eye.

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:14 pm

neufer wrote:At least when "I" date myself I do it with astrological precision.

When I think of all the astrological precision ancient civilizations used in their decision making and where it got them, I'm not impressed. But then, astrology is a so much more advanced science than it was in ancient days.

emc · Post by **emc** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:30 pm

neufer wrote:
emc wrote:I did date myself didn't I... but I happen to know that I am five years younger than neufer. 8)
At least when "I" date myself I do it with astrological precision.

November 3, 1951 - "It was a new day yesterday - it's an old day now"

Arramon · Post by **Arramon** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:13 pm

2. Welcome to earth, can I get you a cup of...

How about some matter/particles that the alien would think tasted good. Not our earthly mixtures that already taste like poo. Maybe they only digest liquid goo material, or maybe energy pellets because they ascended to a new form of life, or maybe they can't consume matter in a state other than plasma...?

=b

*hands over a slice of galactic pizza, super-charged with pepperoni particles and extra cheesy energy beams*

and 1/10/1975 over here....

neufer · Post by **neufer** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:48 pm

Arramon wrote:How about some matter/particles that the alien would think tasted good. Not our earthly mixtures that already taste like poo. Maybe they only digest liquid goo material, or maybe energy pellets because they ascended to a new form of life, or maybe they can't consume matter in a state other than plasma...?

*hands over a slice of galactic pizza, super-charged with pepperoni particles and extra cheesy energy beams*

Howard Denker: It's hungry! It has to be fed constantly
- or it will reach out its magnetic arm and grab at anything within its reach
and kill it. It's monstrous, Stewart, monstrous. It grows bigger and bigger!
- The Magnetic Monster (1953)

I saw this movie at the old Vernon theatre in 1953
(Across the street from where I ate at the Wafle Shop:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sssdc/500207570/ )
..............................................................
The Magnetic Monster (1953)
..............................................................
<<Working for O.S.I., the Office of Scientific Investigation, A-Man agent Jeffrey Stewart and his partner Dan Forbes are sent to a local hardware store where they find a strong magnetic field has magnetized every metal item in the store. Investigating further, they eventually trace the source of the magnetism to an airborn flight carrying scientist Howard Denker, now dying of radiation poisoning, who has carted on board with him a new radioactive element which he has bombarded with alpha particles for 200 hours. The element, dubbed 'serranium' grows geometrically by creating matter out of energy which it absorbs from metallic objects surrounding it. Stewart calculates that if the substance is not destroyed soon that within 24 hours or so it will have grown large enough to throw Earth out of its orbit.>>
----------------------------------------

<<(Serak the Preparer provides the Simpson family with a bounty of food.)

Marge: Well, thank you very much, Mr.--

Serak the Preparer (voiced by James Earl Jones):
. To pronounce it correctly, I would have to pull out your tongue.

Lisa asks why the aliens never eat, and they explain that they are
saving their appetite for a great feast that awaits them on Rigel IV.

Marge asks if they're invited.

Kang answers, ``You'll be at the feast.
I have a feeling you'll be the Guests of Honor...''

The aliens chuckle.

Homer asks for more details, but Kodos explains,
``When we arrive, there will be plenty of time to chew the fat...''

Lisa doesn't touch her food.

While the aliens weigh Bart and Homer, Lisa explores.

She discovers the cook reaching for a spice rack.
"This will give the humans the perfect flavor..."
He licks his lips and carries off the pot.

Lisa looks at the cookbook: ``How to Cook Humans.''

She rushes back to the dining room and shows the family her discovery.

(With his mouth full of food, Homer stands up for his family.)
Homer: Listen, you big, stupid space creature, nobody,
. but nobody, eats the Simpsons!

Kodos takes the book and blows off the dust.

The real title is ``How to Cook <for> Humans.''

Lisa blows off more dust: ``How to Cook <Forty> Humans.''

Kodos blows off yet more dust.
The full title reads ``How to Cook <for> Forty Humans.''

Lisa: Well, why were you trying to make us eat all the time?

Kang: Make you eat? We merely provided a sumptuous banquet.
. Frankly, you people made pigs of yourselves.

Serak the Preparer: (Crying) I slaved in the kitchen for days for you people. And…

Kang: Well, if you wanted to make Serak the Preparer cry, mission accomplished.>>

Starship Asterisk*

Distant Solar System (APOD 18 Feb 2008)

Infinite Improbability