The Milky Way at 5000 Meters (APOD 04 Jan 2008)

NoelC · Post by **NoelC** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:35 am

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080104.html

Besides being a beautiful, stunning, gorgeous view of the Milky Way those of us in the Northern hemisphere can only dream about, have you ever seen such a good visualization of our own Milky Way as a full galaxy? This image is one of the most reminiscent of other edge-on galaxies I've ever seen. Compare it with these, for example:

http://www.manoprietoobservatory.com/ph ... 11304.html

http://www.manoprietoobservatory.com/ph ... 62804.html

http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/images/NJP/ngc4565.html

http://starryskies.com/articles/2007/07 ... alaxy.html

There are many more that can be found via a search for "edge-on galaxy".

If anything, our galaxy has the appearance of maybe having more dust - or at least having it a bit more jumbled up - than most. Perhaps this is a sign of recent gravitational interaction with some of the satellite galaxies (e.g., the Magellanic clouds)? Note that the dust seems to be pulled off somewhat more toward the top.

-Noel

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:27 pm

NoelC If you likwe; here are a few worth looking at.

http://www.noao.edu/outreach/aop/observers/galaxy.html
Orin

Cherie · Post by **Cherie** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:56 am

Noel expresses my thoughts exactly. This image blew me away and made me wonder ...how far away from earth would a satellite need to be (and how long would it take to get there) to take a full view (as opposed to edge on) photo of the Milky Way? Alternately, since we are on an outer spiral arm, I'm guessing we would get an edge-on view (that includes us) much sooner, right?

Cherie

FieryIce · Post by **FieryIce** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:37 pm

What makes you think we are a part of the Milky Way Galaxy when it is at a strange angle in the sky?

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:10 pm

Cherie wrote:Noel expresses my thoughts exactly. This image blew me away and made me wonder ...how far away from earth would a satellite need to be (and how long would it take to get there) to take a full view (as opposed to edge on) photo of the Milky Way? Alternately, since we are on an outer spiral arm, I'm guessing we would get an edge-on view (that includes us) much sooner, right?

Cherie

At the fastest rate that we can currently muster, it would take over 400,000,000 (4 hunderd, million) years just to travel 4ly to our next nearest stellar neighbor. We are approx 25,000ly inside the outside boundry of our galaxy. So it would take, at the fastest we can currently travel, 2.5 trllion years to leave our galaxy then another couple of billion to gain a good vantage point, then we would have to wait an additional 28,000ly (light travel time) to get the first image returned to us. (or, if we travel up) it would take approx 30 billion years to reach the top of the galactic plane and then another 2 billion or so to reach a good vantage point, then we would need to wait another 5,000 years to receive the first signal. So you have either 32,000,005,000 years (top down) or 2,502,000,028,000 years (edge on).

Cherie · Post by **Cherie** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:05 pm

Thanks, BMA123. I knew it couldn't happen in my life time...now it's clear it won't happen in the earth's lifetime either.

Cherie

NoelC · Post by **NoelC** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:10 pm

FieryIce wrote:What makes you think we are a part of the Milky Way Galaxy when it is at a strange angle in the sky?

Is this a serious question?

It's pretty clear we're in the Milky Way because the increase in density of the stars that are visible are in a band that goes all the way around the sky. Indeed, we're right in the rotational plane of the Milky way because the thing looks basically edge-on in every direction (well supported by the very photo this thread is about). Note that I didn't say we're rotating with it, but it would be a heck of a coincidence that we should be right in the plane and not moving generally along with the rest of the stars.

What does the angle in the sky have to do with anything? You're thinking because the rotational plane of the Solar System is different from that of the plane of the Milky Way we're not part of it, but maybe just passing through? Maybe part of a satellite galaxy in the process of colliding with the Milky Way?

Don't we know the direction and speed the Solar System is traveling relative to the Milky Way by observation? I don't know where to find the specifics, but I imagine that would settle things.

-Noel

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:42 am

Cherie wrote:Thanks, BMA123. I knew it couldn't happen in my life time...now it's clear it won't happen in the earth's lifetime either.

Cherie

Definitely not in our lifetimes (without some fantastic discovery, extraterrestrial assistance, divine assistance, or other means) but maybe, one day in the distant future we might be able to do this. I hope that we surpass Star Trekian Science one day ane are ablt to travel fast enough for inter galactic trips (as opposed to intragalactic). Fortunately, we are at least learning to crawl.

Cherie · Post by **Cherie** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:13 am

You have a better perspective. There's no reason to believe we won't be able to break through our perceived limitations and move beyond the crawling stage. Here's to hope.

Cherie

Chris Peterson · Post by **Chris Peterson** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:10 am

BMAONE23 wrote:At the fastest rate that we can currently muster, it would take over 400,000,000 (4 hunderd, million) years just to travel 4ly to our next nearest stellar neighbor.

Where did you come up with that? You could jog to the nearest star in that time! Voyager 1 is currently traveling away from the Sun at 17 km/s. That's a light year every 18,000 years. And we could get spacecraft going much faster than that by careful gravity assist orbits.

It would take us about 400 million years at Voyager's speed to leave the galaxy (25,000 ly), not to reach our nearest stellar neighbor.

FieryIce · Post by **FieryIce** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:34 pm

Yes it is Noel and no it is not "pretty clear we're in the Milky Way".

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:15 pm

Light travels at a constant of
.................186,000 MPS
............11,160,000 MPM
..........669,600,000 MPH
......16,070,400,000 MPD
..5,865,696,000,000 MPY
24,753,237,120,000 Miles to out nearest neighbor
= 28,649,580 days / 78492 years (my figures were off. I was thinking hours not years 687,589,920 hours at 36000 mph) But you are still looking at longer than you or I will ever live.

BTW
The galactic edge is
146,642,400,000,000,000 miles away which would actually be:
465,000,000 years to reach at 36000 mph.

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:32 pm

FieryIce wrote:Yes it is Noel and no it is not "pretty clear we're in the Milky Way".

It's not clear to who? Where do you think we are? and what scientific basis do you have for that?

NoelC · Post by **NoelC** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:51 pm

I'll echo what bystander said... If not in the Milky Way, where do you think we are? In some kind of grand planetarium?

I'm still trying to discern whether you think we're passing through the Milky Way and not rotating with it. It seems obvious even to a child we're IN it. I honestly don't see any basis for debate of that. But by all means please present your alternate viewpoint.

-Noel

Cherie · Post by **Cherie** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:15 pm

Yes, do tell us where you think we are. I'm interested too.

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:23 pm

Maybe in DeNile???

(Some people just aren't happy unless they have their "Conspiracy Theories" hanging out)

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:27 pm

"The wider and fastest movement is the orbital motion of the Solar System around the nucleus of our galaxy. The speed of the Solar System orbital motion around the center of the galaxy is 217.215 Km/s. The Solar System completes one track around the galaxy each 226 million years."

From: http://biocab.org/Coplanarity_Solar_Sys ... alaxy.html

Or these:
16. What processes are involved in the formation of the solar system? Describe the position and motion of our solar system in relation to the Milky Way Galaxy.

UCAR, 1999. Solar system formation. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/ ... l&edu=high accessed 1/8/2008.

Ask and Astronomer, 2004. What is the evidence supporting the nebula theory of Solar System formation? http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questi ... number=600 accessed 1/8/2008.

Think Quest. 2005. The Milky Way. http://www.tqnyc.org/NYC041174/galaxy.php accessed 1/8/2008.

Gore, P. 2005. Our solar system in the Milky Way and the Universe. http://gpc.edu/~pgore/Earth&Space/GPS/galaxies.html accessed 1/8/2008.

http://www.eram.k12.ny.us/education/sct ... VIIIB.html #2
From here: http://geography.cst.cmich.edu/Franc1M/ ... _Links.doc

But perhaps FieryIce would prefer us to believe this: http://www.galacticmessenger.com/gblog/?page_id=148
"A great revelation given in the Everlasting Gospel is that a catastrophe happened long ago in this solar system . . . which has been the cause of all the satanic negativity and duality that the people here have been dealing with in this space warp of consciousness."

John

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:56 pm

JohnD wrote:http://www.galacticmessenger.com/gblog/?page_id=148

"A great revelation given in the Everlasting Gospel is that a catastrophe happened long ago in this solar system . . . which has been the cause of all the satanic negativity and duality that the people here have been dealing with in this space warp of consciousness."

I think maybe even L Ron is easier to believe.

craterchains · Post by **craterchains** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:19 pm

Not sure what you all are smoking, but it is very apparent that you've a real problem with Short Term Memory Loss. Reminds me about where does petroleum come from? The stupid teachers are still teaching that it comes from decayed mater in college. No wonder you all are so far back in the learning curve. Like over the hill even.

But then again, it is the intent of "american science" to keep people misinformed, and deceived. Conspiracy? Only if it is true. Like 911, most are so gullible.

John D, you obviously have mistaken FieryIce and myself as "religious". Not in the least. 8)

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:36 pm

That's the spirit CC. Rather than enlightening those of us who are so misinformed and answer the questions posed, lash out with derogatory remarks. I'm sure you attract a lot of adherents to your philosophies with those methods.

BTW, where does petroleum come from? Not the Milky Way, I'm guessing.

FieryIce · Post by **FieryIce** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:43 pm

Ever heard of verify for yourself?

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:03 pm

Ever heard of verify for yourself?

This seems to be the single greatest arguement and problem on these boards. No one seems either willing or able to support claims through supplied proofs. They always state "Look it up". Problem is, the sources used are subject to interpretation and this could be skewed in favor of many different arguements. No one seems willing to link/quote/and supply their interpretation of said quote to support their views.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:53 pm

Since we're trading insults, and Gosh! I do enjoy it when such juicy targets present themselves, FI and CC, consider this.
From Aldous Huxley, who knew one when he saw one, "A fanatic is someone who conciously over-compensates a secret doubt."

I think we all have doubts here, but we don't keep them secret.

Pip,pip!

John

NoelC · Post by **NoelC** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:35 pm

Ever heard of verify for yourself?

Well, I for one went outside and LOOKED at the sky. Yep, there's that light band of galactic density and lo and behold it DOES go all the way around the sky, bisecting it.

There is one and only one conclusion: We're in the plane of the Milky Way.

Are you able to think in 3D? Or do you have trouble with spatial relationships?

In this case, there is no need to "look it up", just to "look up".

-Noel

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:04 pm

I think though, that the arguement (query) is, are we actually traveling around the band of the galactic plane as part of the milky way (in synk with it), or are we just passing through the plane and currently happen to be in the middle of it (tangent to it).

Starship Asterisk*

The Milky Way at 5000 Meters (APOD 04 Jan 2008)

The Milky Way at 5000 Meters (APOD 04 Jan 2008)

Milky Way at 5000 meters

Re: Milky Way at 5000 meters

Re: Milky Way at 5000 meters