apod 1/7/07

[cheech]

i have a hard time visualizing pictures like this in 3d. or figuring out what angle i'm looking at it from. how do the pros do it? if the image was taken 6 months apart could they be combined to make a 3d image?

[orin stepanek]

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070107.html
I'm not sure if this picture was tried in 3-D. To make a 3-D photo you make a print from two points [like your two eyes] than use special glasses to put the 2 points together. [Crossing your eyes a little on a checkerboard causes a 3-D illusion.]
Orin

[Hraefn22]

Theory

To me it appears as though two binary suns went supernova while still in some measure of orbit, so that the shockwaves of each created two expanding rings rather than one. Why the rings at all? I suppose if one sun went off at a slightly different time—such as after the other went off, but before the shockwave of the other supernova hit—then perhaps some type of interference pattern between the two shock fronts could have resulted in the appearance of the rings?

I just read the actual theory, regarding the sweeping jets, and that seems entirely plausible too. I'm still curious however.

[BMAONE23]

They could also have been thrown off the star at the most energetic point on the stellar surface. This would be at the point where the most solar magnetic storm, or sunspot activity is generally recorded: 19deg N Lat & 19deg S Lat. If they were thrown off at these two laitudes then traveled outward, relative to the gravitational center of the stellar mass, you could naturally get this hourglass shape. Just a thought.

[BMAONE23]

I see it as an hourglass shape that is laid on its side and turned approx 30deg towards you. Much like 2 funnels that have been joined at the smallest openings.

[Andy Wade]

I see it as an hourglass shape that is laid on its side and turned approx 30deg towards you. Much like 2 funnels that have been joined at the smallest openings.

Excellent description! I can see that!
I was in central Australia when this happened and so I got to see it with the naked eye. Now that was one heck of a sight to see, and we had seen Halley's comet too whilst we were 'down under'.
I was wondering if it was two seperate explosions until I read your post.
You can see that one of the rings looks like it runs either behind or in front of the bright central point.
I do like this forum.

[ta152h0]

The photo write-up indicates it was observed in 1994. To make more current observations, what does this thing look like now ( 2007 ) ?

[Drostie]

My real question is, why is this a repeat of their picture from 2002-03-31? It has verbatim text and everything. Maybe the APOD folk couldn't do one today and dug up an old one?

Old one at:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020331.html

edit: I guess I didn't see it before, but there are a lot of repeats, aren't there? This picture, particularly so. It was first seen on APOD on 1995-06-21, followed by 1996-07-05 with the modern caption. That picture-and-caption duo have been recycled on 2000-02-06, 2002-03-31, and of course, 2007-01-07.

[kovil]

Aren't they (APOD) having a 5 or 6 of the years best photos from Jan 5-10 or 11 right now?

I think they are waiting until 2008 to Hubble it again, 21 years after, to compare with '94 , 7 years after. For % differences and distance motion.

19 Degrees from the pole? 38 degrees total cone angle?
Fascinating, why the equal double cones and the ring in the center. It's reminiscent of something, not sure what yet.

What would cause two close massive binary suns to nova at the same instant? Twins?

Something magnetic has its fingerprints all over this one, but what's the set-up?

The thick smaller central ring,?

Nova , nova , burning bright
in the darkness of the night,
who could frame thy fearful symmetry ?

[BMAONE23]

kovil,
My daughter says "Sid the Sloth" in Ice Age.

It kind of reminds me of a water drop splash though.

[harry]

Hello All

I had a look at the above link and did a search

Astronomy Picture of the Day
Search Results for "Supernova 1987A"
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apo ... nova+1987A

The both rings are in balance geometrically. I would suggest they were formed during the supernova in a typical hour glass pattern.

[kovil]

Harry, but what_causes that 'typical hourglass pattern'?
(I'd like three quarters of an hour of a nice Pinot Noir , please)


That's what it reminds me of bma1 ; a rolling counter top knife sharpener.
Two- 2" diameter wheels with an axle, and a circular grindstone 1-1/2" dia. inside between them. Push the knife back and forth and roll the device to sharpen, tilt the knife slightly to get the edge on the center circular stone. I saw my first one in the 60's, a Scandinavian invention?

= = =

In the core of the sun, the very small shape where the actual overcoming to the resistance occurs; like a shape charge of C4 or Semtex, the pressure waves at detonation can be shaped to focus and do just what you want done- apply max pressure in a specific spot or line, or pattern.

The sun core has a shape to it when the philosophical resistance is overcome and then it Novas. ( On second thought it might be the shape of the resistance that is NOT overcome, and it Novas instead of making a black hole)

The very core of the sun would have maximum magnetic field strength of the field ? Yes ? And the two electrons would be "playing whole court basketball" with each pair of protons, to resist the most Heisenberg effect. Actually all the electrons would be sharing all the protons; for max confusion about where they are, so that the energy levels could go very high. The entire 'soup' would be a plasma, and subject to magnetic influence. If there is rotation, that may shape the fields and focus the plasma surface to create a shaped threshold. (Or if there is no rotation, one might get a very clean shape !!! Like 1987A ! )

I suspect the intense core magnetics shape the surface of where the philosophical resistance is overcome, and that magnetic shaping translates into the 3 rings, by the reflection pressure wave during nova implosion/explosion. Like a cigar smoker blowing a smoke ring, something shapes the pressure wave, and I suspect it to be a magnetic shaping of the plasma at resistance flash point, it is an equation surface shape.

=

But then there is a deeper resistance that results in a Nova explosion; otherwise it would become a singularity, a gravity well, a black hole.

There are 4 resistances involved.

1. the standard resistance that was holding the sun up and making its fusion process; what suns do.

2. the standard resistance was overcome for some reason, cooling, or gravity too strong; and then the rapid collapse to nova began. Something prevented a black hole and it blew up as a nova instead. That is the second resistance. (which may actually still be the first resistance on second thought!)

3. the resistance that is overcome and it forms a black hole.

4. there is something that is preventing a black hole from disappearing, and that is the 4th resistance. You might say, the black hole is not there, but I say it is there, because if it truly disappeared, there would be no event horizon either. The entire thing would just disappear, and it would look like empty space. The fact that the event horizon is_there says, that all that mass creating all that gravity (as modern physicists would say) is still there, it didn't disappear.

The Undivided did not get so undivided that it disappeared. Something is still preventing the disappearance back into where the Universe apparitionally came from, before it was visible or manifest.
This is the ultimate resistance to disappearing !
I suspect Time and Consciousness play into it along with Inertia and Energy.


from the song "Locked In My Apartment" by Dean Colby

" . . . the clocks in my apartment they look at me and laugh
I can hear the little tick tick tick even when I take a bath,
it won't be long before I'm gone , I haven't done the math . . .

That's why I'm locked in my apartment ! . . . "



I need help to do the math on the resistance surface shape of the magnetically influenced plasma just prior to Nova. Any takers? Where's Richard Feynman when you need him ?

[harry]

Hello Kovil

Go back two steps and get more info on the:

1) Different forms of Nova

2) Different forms of Supernova

3) Formation of Neutron, quark and the theorectical preon stars.

4) The formation of the so called black hole, not as a well or a singularity but as a Ultra dense plasma matter also called degerated matter and the so called MECO object.

Once you do this research you will put the logic in its proper place.

I could give you my opinion, but! I could be wrong.

One sec I have in my archive these links. There are some that I agree with and there are some that I do not.

Introduction to neutron stars
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/nstar.html

Short and Long Gamma-Ray Bursts Different to the Core
http://universe.nasa.gov/press/2003/030220a.html

Evidence Found for New Form of Ultra-Dense Matter
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 20410.html

Neutron Star Collisions Common, Study Suggests
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/n ... 31203.html

In this paper the writer states that the neutron core is a dead star. Not so true in my opinion Neutron cores are the seed for a future star or the seed for a black hole.

Neutron Star
http://cosmos.swin.edu.au/lookup.html?e=neutronstar

Microquasar in Motion
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040916.html

"Microquasars" in Our Own Galaxy
http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2000/vla20/background/superlum/

3C58: Pulsar Power
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041223.html

The Pulsar Powered Crab
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960531.html

Chandra X-ray Movie of Vela Pulsar Jet
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2003/v ... tions.html

Hubble Sees a Neutron Star Alone in Space
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... r/1997/32/
========================================

Anatomy of the Classical Nova Outburst
http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/space/ ... h_4a2.html

Classical Novae
http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/space/ ... th_4a.html


Maybe this will have a bit of info.
Contents
http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/space/ ... tents.html

Black Holes
http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/space/ ... _3cii.html

The above links are very elimentary and I do not agree with the. That does not mean they are wrong. There is new info on the horizin.

Lecture 17: The Evolution of High-Mass Stars
http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu ... imass.html


Lecture 18: Supernovae
http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu ... rnova.html

Origins of Stars
http://dsnra.jpl.nasa.gov/origins/index.html

After reading the above I would read the papers written by Prof Oliver Manuel and Co.
http://www.omatumr.com/papers.html

==========================================
Sorry for posting so many

oops Hour Glass,,,,,,,,,,,,,,controlled by the electromagnetic/gravity fields from the core.

The Boomerang Nebula - the coolest place in the Universe?
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/ht ... 0301a.html

Hubble reveals previously unseen shocks
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/ht ... 0111a.html

Ants in Space?
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/ht ... 0101a.html

The Glowing Eye of NGC 6751
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/opo0012a.html
This image is face on, I would imagine this would have an hour glass formation also.

NGC 2346
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/opo9935d.html

Hubble Sees Supersonic Exhaust From Nebula
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/opo9738a.html

=========================================
The Hourglass Nebula
http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/opo9607a.html

[mbisc]

doesn't seem like a mystery to me, so much as a object being viewed at approx 30 deg angle from the centerline. Change the viewing angle and you have the central object and a shock wave ring which is expanding in both directions above and below the central object. Why isn't it a sphere? Good question.

[ta152h0]

could very well be a sphere......................made up of dirt and sand and only materials that glow in radiation are seen.

[jml2007]

I was struck by the similarity of the Mysterious Rings to the Villarceau circles as illustrated in the Wikipedia Picture of the Day for January 8, 2007. Could the supernova have emitted a toroidal smoke ring?

[harry]

Hello

Look at the image

http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/opo9607a.html


In my opinion
Rings can be formed during the ejection of matter before the supernova explosion. The ejections created by the jets.

[BMAONE23]

Nice find Harry. Very beautiful image. It, even more so, reminds me of a water drop splash. But it is also reminiscent of a true magnetic field reversal not just a polar swap but something more like antimagnetism.

[harry]

Hello BMAONE23

Plasma Cosmology is the future in explaining how the jets are created and what actually drives them with a huge force.

The above image is but one of the huge collection. Go to the archive section.

[NoelC]

The photo write-up indicates it was observed in 1994. To make more current observations, what does this thing look like now ( 2007 ) ?

It was first observed in 1994, and has been imaged at intervals ever since.

You should know that the most recent Hubble images are held private for a year to allow the scientists making the observations time to publish their findings.

I've recently processed the datasets that are about 2-3 years old into an image, which is available here:

http://www.spacetelescope.org/projects/ ... ni_02.html

I do need to get back and look over the 1 year-old data that has just been made available to the public.

-Noel

[BMAONE23]

It would be interesting to see another animated gif showing all available images through time.

[kovil]

http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/html/opo0409r.html

for a time series of hubble and other telescope views of sn1987a.

My present and corrected view is that the bell shaped structures, if there are some, leading out to the distant large rings, were existing before the supernova explosion, and have not yet been reached by the physical blast wave.

[harry]

Hello Kovil

I agree with you.

[kovil]

Hi Harry, how's summer ? haha It was -2F this am (-19C) do you use metric or British? ps. Mary Gauthier will be at The Harp in Sydney on Jan 18, '07 ! Saw her at New Hampshire's Great Waters Music Festival last July, totally outstanding musician/songwriter with equal backup band. She and Antje Duvekot were the most outstanding of the festival !! Both are great writers. It's not Beethoven, Mary is Nashville/now; Antje is folk/truth.

==

So if the bells and rings were extant before the SN, then we are free to speculate on their origin genesis. I'm opting for something magnetic ! For the organization portion.
Gravity provides the forces for the ejection energy portion.

The basis for my speculation is rooted in Dobson, as the Infinite is Energy, and that all involves electricity and magnetism and plasma; and the preponderance of the effects are energy, that leaves magnetism for the prime organizer, and kinetics as the prime mover.

The Undivided supplies most of the kinetic energy potential by gravitational attraction transforming into heat.

The Changeless is how the protons contain inertia and are subject to gravity. Protons also play off of the electrons to create the duality to hold up the plurality from collapsing. (I am having a continuing difficulty describing inertia! The suspicion that Time enters via inertia, The Changeless; gives my mind a complexity it hasn't solved yet.)

At the considerable risk of being overly longwinded...

As the Changeless
moves through the Undivided,
the Infinite arises. (and maybe not necessarily in that order)

Wherefore; a Black Hole is the Undivided,
now truly being in its beingness of being undivided, and not divided.
This is why the laws of physics appear to break down near black holes.
The Undivided is no longer divided! , like it is everywhere else in the universe. It is now Undivided !!

This is what a Black Hole is, where the Undivided is undivided.
So one of the three components that make up the universe is missing, or different in this location.
As we_see things, the Infinite is still finite, the Changeless is still changing, but the Undivided is now not divided.

With the Undivided now missing, or different; how do the remaining two components relate together? What's left are the Changeless and the Infinite.

With the Undivided now 'unfrustrated' , how do the Changeless and the Infinite relate together when the Undivided is no longer being frustrated by being divided?

The Changeless is still frustrated by changing, and the Infinite is still frustrated by by being finite (discrete electrical particles). But the Undivided has succeeded in unfrustrating itself from being divided and is now undivided (at least in the Black Hole portion of space-time).

And this is why Black Holes are so unique.

Hawking theorized that inside the event horizon time becomes space-like and space becomes time-like. Meaning that if one could move thru space the time would be different in different locations. My feet would be a million years in a different time, but only 6' away (toward the center) but I could not touch my toes! as I could not move thru space, just as here I cannot move thru time.

Energy, the Infinite, how does that react inside the event horizon?
It can no longer move around, as it is bounded by the speed of light, it is limited and in a sense is frozen, as it cannot move thru space, as that would exceed the speed of light limit. It would exceed the Ratio of Space to Time, which is another way to say the 'speed of light'.
The Infinite is experiencing limitations!

The Changeless, momentum/inertia, inside the event horizon; is it still behaving like before? Angular momentum is thought to be conserved and present in black holes. Here is where the debate over black holes evaporating comes in. Meaning, does any information come out of a black hole? Like the angular momentum still giving information into this portion of the universe, even tho the escape velocity is greater than the speed of light. Information is an energy bailiwick, and a light speed contingency, and is seemingly bounded by the event horizon; can any information still escape? If the Changeless via angular momentum can express information to the surrounding universe outside the event horizon, it will be succeeding. It will be like the Infinite, in being all pervading (on the outside of the event horizon). While the Infinite is being like the Changeless, not able to be fungible into a myriad of forms (heat, electricity,magnetism,light etc) on the inside of the event horizon, it is stuck, locked into a single position because its escape velocity (speed of light) is too slow to escape or move thru its present environment inside the event horizon. Like the Changeless is stuck, locked in the proton, giving it inertia/momentum; the Infinite is now stuck, locked in time-space unable to move and be all-pervading. (the implications of this are beyond the moment to comprehend, it is all I can do to stay on a single line of thought.)

In this way the Changeless takes on the characteristics of the Infinite, and the Infinite takes on characteristics of the Changeless. Just as time and space swapped features. Like Wonderland, things have a mirror reversal element about themselves.

Could it be that Energy becomes inertia-like and Inertia becomes Energy-like inside the event horizon ?

Whereas time keeps Energy from moving in an inertial way; Energy now has an Inertial quality about itself, where it was inertialess outside the event horizon. And Inertia has an Energy-like quality inside the event horizon, in that Inertia can be all pervading inside the event horizon, like Energy was all pervading outside the event horizon. In this way Inertia could be Energy-like and express itself to the outside environment.

In our universe here, Inertia is bounded by the limit of our awareness; that is how the proton knows what rest mass to have. It is subject to awareness of all the other protons in the awareable universe, and regulates its rest mass accordingly, which is also what determines what the gravitational constant will be. In this way awareness or consciousness comes into this universe. Time also comes into this universe via the Changeless, inertia/momentum, but I understand that not yet.

Time is the regulator for speed of light events and effects, via the Ratio of Space to Time, and is omnipresent. Energy is also everywhere and shows up in the concept of the Entropy floor.

Here energy can cross the awareable universe border, but inertia cannot. Inside the event horizon inertia can cross the universe border (the event horizon) but energy cannot.

It will be an exercise of surrender to vision what an environment without the Changeless, inertia/momentum, would look like. Or an environment without the Infinite, energy, would look like. A black hole is the environment without the Undivided, gravity, being divided. Well it's still there, it's just undivided! More work!

[harry]

Hello Kovil

I'm listing these links for people who want to understand

Please read

Preon Trinity - A Schematic Model of Leptons, Quarks and Heavy Vector Bosons
http://www.citebase.org/abstract?id=oai ... ph/0208135
http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format ... ph/0208135

Quarks
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... rk.html#c6


Atomic structure
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... on.html#c1

Exchange Forces
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... hg.html#c1

Fundamental Forces
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... or.html#c2

Electron-Positron Annihilation Provides Evidence of Three Colors for Quarks

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... id.html#c2

Evidence Found for New Form of Ultra-Dense Matter
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 20410.html

Astronomers announced Wednesday the discovery of evidence for a new state of matter heavier than any previously known, equivalent in density to stuffing all of Earth into an auditorium

I think the answer to compact star cores and ultra dense degenerated plasma matter which can prevent light from escaping is through the science of the forces within the atom or should I say between the subatomic particals.


When we talk about black holes there are two basic definitions

1) A black hole with a WELL structure as we see in the movies and a singularity infinite point.

2) A black hole meaning an object so dense that light cannot escape.

Science can handle the second definition and calculate the forces needed to hold the ultra dense degenerated matter together.

Being a plasma we can apply properties to it and work out the formation of the jets that apply to both Neutron star, quark stars, preon stars and the so call black holes.

As for time and space keep it simple. Time does not cahnge, its only the means of communication that changes.