Andromeda, Great Attractor: when do we collide?
-
- Ensign
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:59 pm
Andromeda, Great Attractor: when do we collide?
Thank you for the beautiful shot of Andromeda on APOD 12/22/05.
I have recently learned that the Milky Way will collide with Andromeda in 4 billion years or so. And that our whole "local group" is speeding toward the Great Attractor black hole.
Does anyone know how long until we fall into the Great Attractor?
I have recently learned that the Milky Way will collide with Andromeda in 4 billion years or so. And that our whole "local group" is speeding toward the Great Attractor black hole.
Does anyone know how long until we fall into the Great Attractor?
-
- Science Officer
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:12 am
- Location: The Enchanted Forests of N. Central USA
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Ok
I have estimated the time for our milky way travelling at 600kms/sec
would reach M31 Andromeda by about 1,1000,000,000 years.
I like some to double check this.
Now the earth has been evolving for the last 5 Billion Years or so.
Life evolved about 3 Billion Years
Dinosaurs end about 100,000 yrs ago
By the time we reach M31 I think man would have found a way to travel elswhere.
I have estimated the time for our milky way travelling at 600kms/sec
would reach M31 Andromeda by about 1,1000,000,000 years.
I like some to double check this.
Now the earth has been evolving for the last 5 Billion Years or so.
Life evolved about 3 Billion Years
Dinosaurs end about 100,000 yrs ago
By the time we reach M31 I think man would have found a way to travel elswhere.
Harry : Smile and live another day.
-
- Ensign
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:46 pm
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Hello William
Before we even collide the galaxies will start to unwind extend themselves due to the gravity and than the fun starts.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951218.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951228.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971022.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040612.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001113.html
and there is much more.
and they say the universe is exapnding
Merry Xmas
Before we even collide the galaxies will start to unwind extend themselves due to the gravity and than the fun starts.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951218.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951228.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap971022.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040612.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001113.html
and there is much more.
and they say the universe is exapnding
Merry Xmas
Harry : Smile and live another day.
- orin stepanek
- Plutopian
- Posts: 8200
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:41 pm
- Location: Nebraska
http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... actor.html
Maybe we do collide; maybe we don't. We wouldn't feel a thing.
Orin
Maybe we do collide; maybe we don't. We wouldn't feel a thing.
Orin
-
- Ensign
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:59 pm
Hi Harry, thank you for the great images of collisions. I found a nice animation of Milky Way colliding with Andromeda here:
http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~dubinski/t ... hosis.html
Many thanks to mr. orin stepanek for that great link. I did not realize that we are still testing the Attractor as a theory. So 150 million light years is the hypothesized distance to what could be a black hole or center of mass of galaxies.
I found a site that our local group is moving toward Hydra at 600 kilometers per second. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/PatriciaKong.shtml
So does that work out to be 75 B years? Harry is indeed correct it is only a matter of time, but a long time.
Happy New Year.![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~dubinski/t ... hosis.html
Many thanks to mr. orin stepanek for that great link. I did not realize that we are still testing the Attractor as a theory. So 150 million light years is the hypothesized distance to what could be a black hole or center of mass of galaxies.
I found a site that our local group is moving toward Hydra at 600 kilometers per second. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/PatriciaKong.shtml
So does that work out to be 75 B years? Harry is indeed correct it is only a matter of time, but a long time.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Happy New Year.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
- orin stepanek
- Plutopian
- Posts: 8200
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:41 pm
- Location: Nebraska
Hi ColoradoSky! You found a good link also. 300,000 kph seems awful fast. Makes one wonder just how fast we really are moving. What with moving toward Andromeda and toward the Great Attractor and toward who knows where with the expansion of space and all. And yet we feel no sense of motion at all. Happy New Year.
Orin
Orin
-
- Science Officer
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:12 am
- Location: The Enchanted Forests of N. Central USA
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Thanks to colaradosky link
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/PatriciaKong.shtml
I will make a few corrections to the previous post I made by 'Harry'
quote:
"In conclusion, galaxies experience neutral attractions on one other. Due to relativity, the speed of the Milky Way varies when compared with different objects in space. For example, I have learned from my research that the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxy are approaching each other with a speed of about 130 km/s, however the collision of these two galaxies will not occur for about 5 billion years (AstroFile). Another result I found was that our galaxy and neighbors are moving at 600 km/s in the direction of the constellation Hydra (Scientific American). Finally, I found that the Milky Way moves through space within the cluster of galaxies it is a member of, and this cluster in turn moves through space towards yet another larger cluster of galaxies off in the direction of the constellation Virgo. This speed is approximately 300 km/s (Ask the Space Scientist). Therefore, the speed of the Milky Way galaxy is not a single number, its value is relative to the speed of other objects".
I have estimated the time for our milky way travelling at 600kms/sec
would reach M31 Andromeda by about 1,1000,000,000 years.
times this by 4.55 gives us 5,005,000,000 ie 5.5 billion years.Out by a few billion here or there. Aint so bad.Smile
Now the earth has been evolving for the last 5 Billion Years or so.
Life evolved about 3 Billion Years
Dinosaurs end about 100,000,000 yrs ago
So in the scale of things we are not too far away.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/PatriciaKong.shtml
I will make a few corrections to the previous post I made by 'Harry'
quote:
"In conclusion, galaxies experience neutral attractions on one other. Due to relativity, the speed of the Milky Way varies when compared with different objects in space. For example, I have learned from my research that the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxy are approaching each other with a speed of about 130 km/s, however the collision of these two galaxies will not occur for about 5 billion years (AstroFile). Another result I found was that our galaxy and neighbors are moving at 600 km/s in the direction of the constellation Hydra (Scientific American). Finally, I found that the Milky Way moves through space within the cluster of galaxies it is a member of, and this cluster in turn moves through space towards yet another larger cluster of galaxies off in the direction of the constellation Virgo. This speed is approximately 300 km/s (Ask the Space Scientist). Therefore, the speed of the Milky Way galaxy is not a single number, its value is relative to the speed of other objects".
I have estimated the time for our milky way travelling at 600kms/sec
would reach M31 Andromeda by about 1,1000,000,000 years.
times this by 4.55 gives us 5,005,000,000 ie 5.5 billion years.Out by a few billion here or there. Aint so bad.Smile
Now the earth has been evolving for the last 5 Billion Years or so.
Life evolved about 3 Billion Years
Dinosaurs end about 100,000,000 yrs ago
So in the scale of things we are not too far away.
Harry : Smile and live another day.
- orin stepanek
- Plutopian
- Posts: 8200
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:41 pm
- Location: Nebraska
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Yes the speed will increase as we get closer to M31.
Our Galaxy is heading towards M31 and also to the centre m87 of our local cluster of galaxies. Which is moving towards the centre of a larger cluster Hydra. Which itself is moving towards a larger cluster.
They keep on telling me that the universe is expanding.
I cannot work it out. What part is expanding.
Happy New Year
Our Galaxy is heading towards M31 and also to the centre m87 of our local cluster of galaxies. Which is moving towards the centre of a larger cluster Hydra. Which itself is moving towards a larger cluster.
They keep on telling me that the universe is expanding.
I cannot work it out. What part is expanding.
Happy New Year
Harry : Smile and live another day.
-
- Ensign
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:59 pm
I too have been puzzled about the universe expanding yet things falling into local black holes. I found an article "The Universe Might Last Forever, Astronomers Say, but Life Might Not" which discusses how dark energy may be pushing the universe apart. The whole article is well worth a read, but I'll quote a bit regarding the acceleration of this expansion that fits this thread...harry wrote:
They keep on telling me that the universe is expanding.
I cannot work it out. What part is expanding.
"If the present trend of acceleration continues this is the forecast:
In about two billion years Earth will become uninhabitable as a gradually warming Sun produces a runaway greenhouse effect. In five billion years the Sun will swell up and die, burning the Earth to a crisp in the process. At about the same time the Milky Way will collide with its twin the Andromeda galaxy, now about two million light- years away and closing fast, spewing stars, gas and planets across intergalactic space.
Any civilization that managed to survive these events would face a future of increasing ignorance and darkness as the accelerating cosmic expansion rushes most of the universe away from us. "Our ability to know about the universe will decrease with time," said Dr. Krauss. "The longer you wait, the less you see, the opposite of what we always thought.
...
"At present all possibilities are open," [Dr. Freeman Dyson] wrote. "The recent observations are important, not because they answer the big questions about the history of the universe, but because they give us new tools with which to explore the history."
Even in an accelerating universe, Dr. Dyson said, humans or their descendants might one day be able to rearrange the galaxies and save more of them from disappearing.
http://www.phys.cwru.edu/~krauss/01ENDrev.html
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Hello Coloradosky
When i said:
They keep on telling me that the universe is expanding.
I cannot work it out. What part is expanding?
I was just joking.
I do know, that's in my thinking what is happening out there.
I do not think the universe is expanding.
Parts of the universe do expand and parts contract.
As for the age of the universe. It is infinite no age , no start , no end.
Yes the sun one day will destroy planet earth and we hope before that, man will find a way to survive and live to fight another day.
Black holes are a normal part of the recyling process of the universe. Blackholes become active and eject matter back into space with new energy, like a rebirth.
Acceleration has been used in lose way.
The process of the sun will take its path. It could even be sooner for our sun to shed its skin. Normally its Iron content.
Happy New Year
When i said:
They keep on telling me that the universe is expanding.
I cannot work it out. What part is expanding?
I was just joking.
I do know, that's in my thinking what is happening out there.
I do not think the universe is expanding.
Parts of the universe do expand and parts contract.
As for the age of the universe. It is infinite no age , no start , no end.
Yes the sun one day will destroy planet earth and we hope before that, man will find a way to survive and live to fight another day.
Black holes are a normal part of the recyling process of the universe. Blackholes become active and eject matter back into space with new energy, like a rebirth.
Acceleration has been used in lose way.
The process of the sun will take its path. It could even be sooner for our sun to shed its skin. Normally its Iron content.
Happy New Year
Harry : Smile and live another day.
-
- Science Officer
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:12 am
- Location: The Enchanted Forests of N. Central USA
It is the space between the galactic clusters that seems to have the greatest rate of expansion. It could be all space is expanding at the same rate and the distances between galactic clusters is a much greater distance so there would be more expansion over the larger area. It could also be that matter repels Dark Matter so Dark Matter collects between the galactic clusters pushing them apart.
Yet another possibility is that Relative Earth Time is slowing at a greater rate than the early universe so what appears to be expansion may not be that at all. Stronger gravity fields can affect the Red Shift as well as change in relative time and relative speed. Any one or any mix of these options have validity.
Yet another possibility is that Relative Earth Time is slowing at a greater rate than the early universe so what appears to be expansion may not be that at all. Stronger gravity fields can affect the Red Shift as well as change in relative time and relative speed. Any one or any mix of these options have validity.
The more I learn, the more I know what I don't know.
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Hello Bilderback
Which cluster of galaxies
Local cluster.
Local cluster that our local cluster is part of.
Super clusters.
If you have evidence, i'd love to see it.
I think the universe is infinite and is in a never ending process of recycling.
The Big Bang theories are at their tail end.
If the universe is "all". Than "all" cannot expand unless you bring in diffferent time dimension, which i cannot see to work.
Which cluster of galaxies
Local cluster.
Local cluster that our local cluster is part of.
Super clusters.
If you have evidence, i'd love to see it.
I think the universe is infinite and is in a never ending process of recycling.
The Big Bang theories are at their tail end.
If the universe is "all". Than "all" cannot expand unless you bring in diffferent time dimension, which i cannot see to work.
Harry : Smile and live another day.
- orin stepanek
- Plutopian
- Posts: 8200
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:41 pm
- Location: Nebraska
What about antimatter; Would matter and antimatter attract? Maybe we are going toward and wouldn't see A universe made of antimatter because anti light couldn't be seen. What is left over when antimatter and matter collide? Total annihilation I know but There has to be something. I think I'll pass on the next cold one.
Orin
Orin
What's expanding? The space - though we've been through that one elsewhere....!
I suspect the human race will be gone when we collide - though if we're not I wouldn't worry too much - stars very very rarely collide in galactic collisions - should be more concerned about the shock waves producing new stars and effecting galactic orbits.....
(65M years since the end of the creataceous period). We've only been around 2/3M. The average for a species is not that long at all in the scale of things.....
I suspect the human race will be gone when we collide - though if we're not I wouldn't worry too much - stars very very rarely collide in galactic collisions - should be more concerned about the shock waves producing new stars and effecting galactic orbits.....
(65M years since the end of the creataceous period). We've only been around 2/3M. The average for a species is not that long at all in the scale of things.....
The Artist Formerly Known as Empeda
- orin stepanek
- Plutopian
- Posts: 8200
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:41 pm
- Location: Nebraska
If the human race is still around at the time that Andromeda and Milky way collide; than I am sure man will have evolved to where he has colonized planets around other stars within the galaxy. Surely most of these will survive such an event. What a great opportunity this will be for Astronomers so study the forces of nature going on at the time when it is happening.
Actually this would probably be more of a merger than a collusion.
Orin
Actually this would probably be more of a merger than a collusion.
Orin
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
The Expanding universe is a subject that will be discussed in detail with all the recent observations.
Some say it is expanding others say it is not.
The funny thing is that our conclusions of an expanding universe are not founded on solid foundations. This makes the theory wobble.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my opinion the universe is not exapnding but! going through cycles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other point when galaxies collide there is an opinion that the stars rearly collide.
That is not true: What happens is that the frequency of collision increases and although it takes along time, the stars will collide onto other stars and blackholes that are distributed throughout both galaxies and also the central blackholes will dance for sometime before they merge with each other.
I hope the New Year brings good luck to all
Some say it is expanding others say it is not.
The funny thing is that our conclusions of an expanding universe are not founded on solid foundations. This makes the theory wobble.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my opinion the universe is not exapnding but! going through cycles.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other point when galaxies collide there is an opinion that the stars rearly collide.
That is not true: What happens is that the frequency of collision increases and although it takes along time, the stars will collide onto other stars and blackholes that are distributed throughout both galaxies and also the central blackholes will dance for sometime before they merge with each other.
I hope the New Year brings good luck to all
Harry : Smile and live another day.