Inner Core of our sun

[BMAONE23]

Another related question but off on a different slant:

Fusion in the solar envelope and the make-up of atoms.

Given the accepted fact that the sun fuses hydrogen(?) into helium and helium into???, a Hydrogen atom contains 1 proton and one electron (as most all non isotopic atoms carry an equal number of protons and electrons), and helium contains 2 protons, 2 electrons, and 2 neutrons, I would assume that it is actually 2 duterium atoms (1 proton, 1 electron, and one neutron) that fuse to form helium.

My obvious question is this: Where do the free neutrons come from that bind with, either the hydrogen atom (forming a Duterium atom prior to fusion into helium) or with a fused hydrogen atom to form helium?

[harry]

Hello All

In my opinion

Neutrocome from several sources

1) If the inner core is very dense it maybe home to some form neutron hyrogen combination. From this there maybe a neutron release as earlier expalined.

2) Fission reactions do occur with the Iron atom braking down to neutrons.

3) Hydrogen atoms breaking down to neutrons.


4) Heavier elements than Iron when formed do break down and release neutrons.

I could be wrong

[astro_uk]

There are actually several routes to hydrogen to helium fusion, the pp chain and the CNO cycle being two.

The pp chain is the one you describe BMAONE23.

In the Sun, this is the dominant route, but in higher mass stars which are hotter enough to create Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen this route tends to dominate.

In the Sun, there are no free neutrons, free neutrons have a half life of 8 minutes and quickly decay, if there is no strong potential acting on them.

The helium produced in the sun is produced by fusing 4 protons, two electrons join with two of the protons to form two neutrons.

So that you get 4H + 2 e --> He + 2 neutrinos + 6 photons overall. This is the simplified version, the actual version can be found here:

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect ... chain.html

[BMAONE23]

Thanks for the info everyone. Nice link Astro, really easy to understand.

[harry]

Hello All

I'm trying to kick start my brain.

I think its lost a few spark plugs.

May have to go for a tune up.

Any way, going back a little.

I agree with Astro and Michael as to the neutrons.

But! how many are produced by Fission reactions.
========================================

As for the onion layers, I discussed that in previous posts in reference with Oliver Manuels and Michael Mozina's papers.


Re Link
http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/Media/re ... ease.shtml
NASA's Spitzer Peels Back Layers of Star's Explosion

Spitzer was able to solve the riddle. It turns out that parts of the Cas A star had not been shot out as fast as others when the star exploded. Imagine an onion blasting apart with some layered chunks cracking off and zooming away, and other chunks from a different part of the onion shooting off at slightly slower speeds

"Now we can better reconstruct how the star exploded," said Dr. William Reach of NASA's Spitzer Science Center, Pasadena, Calif. "It seems that most of the star's original layers flew outward in successive order, but at different average speeds depending on where they started."

How did Spitzer find the missing puzzle pieces? As the star's layers whiz outward, they are ramming, one by one, into a shock wave from the explosion and heating up. Material that hit the shock wave sooner has had more time to heat up to temperatures that radiate X-ray and visible light. Material that is just now hitting the shock wave is cooler and glowing with infrared light. Consequently, previous X-ray and visible-light observations identified hot, deep-layer material that had been flung out quickly, but not the cooler missing chunks that lagged behind. Spitzer's infrared detectors were able to find the missing chunks -- gas and dust consisting of the middle-layer elements neon, oxygen and aluminum.

Michael I think Oliver Manuel is going to be happy reading this.


I think people shopuld read this
http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0512/0512633.pdf
over again in light of Nasa's report.


WoW!!!!!!!!!! this is a fantastic observation by NASA.

Not only that, I wander why the solar envelope peeled in layers and which layer gave the last explosion causing the supernova.

Most probably the Iron layer.

This puts more light to the workings of the sun.

[harry]

Hello All

I just got these emailed to me:

1. "Onion-skin layers survive SN explosion!" CalTech,
26 Oct 2006
http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/Media/re ... ease.shtml

2. "Supernova explodes into layers of elements," NASA,
26 Oct 2006 http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitz ... 01901.html

Compare, for example, NASA's drawing (#2 above) with
the drawing (below) that the late Dr. Dwarka Das Sabu
and Oliver Manuel showed at the meeting of the Americal
Geophysical Union in Washington, DC in April 1976.

http://www.omatumr.com/Origin.htm


3. "Supernova was stunningly close", Space.com, 24 Oct 2006
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/0 ... sters.html

The Sun had sisters when it was born, according to new research, hundreds to thousands of them.

And at least one was a supernova, providing further support for the idea that there could be lots of planets around other stars since our solar system emerged in such an explosive environment.

When massive stars explode and go supernova, they create radioactive isotopes that are blown outward and mix with nebular gas and dust as they condense into stars and planets. In the case of our solar system, that means some of the isotopes were trapped in the rocks that hardened to form the early solar system. Meteorites are remnants of those rocks, so they contain the radioactive offspring, or daughter species, of the isotopes created by the supernova

and why not planet Earth and Mars and the other planets.

[harry]

Hello All

Michael it is quite interesting with a smile.

The more we go on a limb and seek a better explanation about the workings of the sun the better we get in explaining the stages of formation of stars and the ongoing universe.

[harry]

hello all

Hi! Michael

That is fantastic news.

Oliver must be over the hill.


I started to read the abstract

There maybe a mistake in the print

Abstract—The Sun is a plasma diffuser that selectivelymoves light elements likeH and He and the lighter
isotopes of each element to its surface. The Sun formed on the collapsed core of a supernova (SN) and
is composed mostly of elements made near the SN core (Fe, O, Ni, Si, and S), like the rocky planets
and ordinary meteorites. Neutron emission from the central neutron star triggers a series of reactions that
generate solar luminosity, solar neutrinos, solar mass fractionation, and an outpouring of hydrogen in the
solar wind.Mass fractionation seems to have operated in the parent star and likely occurs in other stars as
well.

The way it reads, it may imply that Fe, O, Ni and Si maybe be part of the core. Maybe its just my reading.

Wow!!!!!!!!!! good news.

[harry]

Hello All

Michael once this is accepted. The implications on the "Ongoing Universe" are great. Its going to open the flood doors.

If you notice I did not say the Origin of the Universe, but! the ongoing universe.

[harry]

Hello Michael

Mate, not that hill.


Michael said

Assuming that Dr. Manuel is right about the core containing a neutron star, then the crust of that neutron star contains quite a bit of Iron and Nickel. I would be inclined to believe that many other elements are present inside the sun as well

.

Yes I agree with that.

As for our sun having a neutron core or some form of high density plasma matter is on the cards.

I would assume the inner core to be about 10^18 density to control the over heating and also hold the solar envelope together. I need someone to calculate this.

[harry]

Hello Michael

Smile,,,,,,,,,,,,stay cool and relax

[Nereid]

Hello All

I just got these emailed to me:

1. "Onion-skin layers survive SN explosion!" CalTech,
26 Oct 2006
http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/Media/re ... ease.shtml

The "onion skin" reference is quite telling. Those were the exact words that Oliver used to describe the mass separation of plasmas on the sun when we first talked on the phone about a year and half ago. It's quite amusing to me now that that NASA would use those exact same words to describe the process at work on Cassiopeia A.

This mass separation process is one of the easiest things to understand, and it's fully congruent with what happens in plasma here on earth. Plasma will mass separate right down to the isotope in the presence of strong gravitational and magnetic fields.

And you can show this similarity quantitatively?

[Nereid]

Hello All

Michael it is quite interesting with a smile.

The more we go on a limb and seek a better explanation about the workings of the sun the better we get in explaining the stages of formation of stars and the ongoing universe.

And you can back up this astonishing claim quantitatively?

[Nereid]

Hello All

Michael it is quite interesting with a smile.

The more we go on a limb and seek a better explanation about the workings of the sun the better we get in explaining the stages of formation of stars and the ongoing universe.

FYI, our Physics of Atomic Nuclei paper has now been "officially" published. Our work has now been published in the Journal of Fusion energy as well as the Physics of Atomic Nuclei (Yadernaya Fizika). You'll note that Dr. Manuel's work has now been published in the following publications:

1. Science
2. Nature
3. Proceedings of the 11th Lunar & Planetary Science Conference
4. Geochemical Journal (Japan)
5. Meteoritics
6. Comments on Astrophysics
7. The Journal of Fusion Energy
8. The Journal of Radioanalytical & Nuclear Chemistry
9. Physics of Atomic Nuclei
10. Yadernaya Fizika (Russian)
11. The American Institute of Physics (AIP) Proceedings volume #822, pp. 206-225 (2006)
12. The Institute of Physics (IOP) Proceedings of the 3rd International Conference on Beyond Standard Model Physics, pp. 307-316 (2003)
13. European Space Agency (ESA)
SP-500, pp. 787-790 (2002)
SP-517, pp. 345-348 (2003)

In which of these is the 'Sun has a solid iron/ferrite surface' idea published?

[Nereid]

Hello Nereid

Good question I will check and get back to you.

Right now my time is spent on another project. For the next few days I will be in and out.

And what did you find?