Crank Theory of the Week

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Dr. Skeptic
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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:04 pm

harry wrote:Hello Dr Skeptic

You make false statements and hope that others will accept your info.

So be it.
All I ask is you address one error or falsehood in my postings. Pick one, any one and we will debate it.

Debating does not mean posting other peoples work.
Speculation ≠ Science

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Crank Theory of the Week

Post by linx » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:22 pm

I think we should all be very grateful that we have a towering intellect like Harry here, us little people could surely never get by if we didnt have Harry here to point out that the opinions of many thousands of very clever people who have devoted their lives to looking at this issue, years of research, dozens of independent lines of evidence, countless thousands of experimental verifications, and millions of journal articles only add up to ",,,,,,,,,,,,very little supporting evidence." I guess one Universe isnt enough eh?
i for 1 am grateful for Harry's line of thought

its very interesting to read various & sincere opinions from all of you knowleadgeable people, even though these opinions may well be proved at some future point in time to be sincerely wrong

by the way, all these clever people you speak of, although discovering & uncovering many scientific facts havent found a sound answer to the origins of the Universe have they ..logically something very vital is missing in the understanding of this origin of our Universe, or has been understood incorrectly

i guess all must search on

Lin x

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orin stepanek
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Post by orin stepanek » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:12 pm

I too have reservations about the BBT. I don't dismiss it; but I don't accept it either. I really don't accept the any other theory; nor do I dismiss them. The problem I have with the BBT is that when ever I see deep space objects is that galaxies out there seem to be fully developed. they ought to be in there early development. The radiation background may be something else rather than an echo of the big bang. How could there be an echo of the big bang if there wasn't anything to echo off of? What is the life span of a photon? Maybe they die after 13 or 14 billion years. Maybe the big bang did happen; but let other scientists keep studying and maybe some other interesting theories may arise that we may openly discuss.
Harry hold on to your ideals; they laughed when the earth was round theory first came out. And they laughed when it was taught that the Earth wasn't the center of the solar system.
Orin

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Crank Theory of the Week

Post by linx » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:52 pm

Debating does not mean posting other peoples work.

from what i wonder have you gleaned your knowledge that you would use for debate Dr S. if not from other people's work

Linx

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Post by astro_uk » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:06 pm

You make a good point there Orin, but not all galaxies at high Z look fully developed, I saw a really nice talk about high z galaxies at a conference, the slides are available here:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/cosmology06/talks/stockton.pdf

This was really cool work, it was the morphologies and ages of galaxies at z=1.5-2.5. Most of the galaxies they found were spiral like, but they were much too small, like 10 or 20 times smaller than spirals now. That much is ok, its kind of what you expect in Lambda CDM models, what was really interesting is the ages of the galaxies, these galaxies which are being seen as they were 10 Billion years ago have ages at that time of at least 2 Billion years. So they must have formed all of their stars in the first 2 Billion years after the BB and then sat there passively for the next 2 Billion years.

Now this kind of information is really cool because it allows you to compare computer simulations of the galaxies and the actual Universe. It turns out that is not actually unexpected to see this situation, the galaxies he picked are ones that are most highly clustered, ones that one day will become the giant ellipticals in the centres of galaxy clusters, and the galaxies he looked at do look like you could merge many of them together to get the big ellipticals you see today.

The other thing is that we are limited to looking at brightish things in the distant Universe which forces us generally to look at very large fully developed objects, these may be uncommon at that point in time but appear to be purely because thats all we can see.

The point about the CMB radiation echo is a common one because someone decided to call it such, even though it has nothing to do with echoes. The CMB radiation is simply the light given off just as the Universe cooled down enough after the BB (because of the expansion) so that protons and electrons could combine to form hydrogen. Before this point the Universe was ionised, so any light that was emitted would instantly be absorbed by a free electron and then re-emitted in another direction, so the Universe was opaque.

As far as I know there is no currently understood route to allow photons to decay, it may be possible for Protons to decay, but the lifespan of that cant be less than many Billions of years due to experimental limits.

Many astronomers have problems with many things in astronomy. Essentially none have problems with the Big Bang, if you ask them what makes them uncomfortable its usually Dark Energy or Dark Matter. It tends to be that people are uncomfortable with BB on deeply held religious grounds, but when you work in the field you see that there is nothing even remotely close to being able to match observations as well as the BB. As a species we need to get over ourselves and accept the Universe is not here for our benefit.

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what is ..............

Post by ta152h0 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:21 pm

What is " false nonsense " ??????????
Wolf Kotenberg

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Re: what is ..............

Post by craterchains » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:39 pm

ta152h0 wrote:What is " false nonsense " ??????????
uhmmmm my namesake being caused by space rocks ! ! ! :lol:
, , , and alot of the BS on this forum. :roll:
"It's not what you know, or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you." Will Rodgers 1938

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Re: what is ..............

Post by FieryIce » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:54 pm

ta152h0 wrote:What is " false nonsense " ??????????
Actually, this thread is a prime example.
Tic Toc

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orin stepanek
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Post by orin stepanek » Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:56 am

I like your post Astro-uk. Your argument is very sound. Still there is a lot of ?'s; and I must confess a lot of this stuff is pretty deep. :)
Orin

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Post by harry » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:59 am

Hello All

Don't you get sick of this girly attitude.

Lets focus on the topic.

Most parts of our discussions are without evidence and mostly theory.

We apply our known laws and assumptions to hopefully get a better idea of what is going on.

Some of you have more info than others, and if so help the ones with less info and ability.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by astro_uk » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:42 pm

Hi Harry
Just wondering if you sent off my questions?

Thanks

harry
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Post by harry » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:49 am

Hello Astro
Fine Harry, perhaps you could ask him a few questions from us?

If all stars form around Supernovae remnants, how did the first stars form?


The formation of stars will be dertermined by the accumulation of matter.

There was never a first star. I never ever agreed on the Big Bang.
If all normal (i.e average ~1 Msun stars) form around supernovae remnants why are there vastly more lower mass stars than large ones?


Are you saying in the MIlky Way or some other known galaxy. Becaue each galaxy is at a different stage of evolution.
My guess for that one is that he will suggest that there were more larger mass stars in the past, this is of course not what we see in the distant Universe, but never mind. If this is the contention how do we reconcile the observed element enhancement ratios (things like the metallicity [Z/H] and the [alpha/Fe] ratio) which demonstrate that spiral galaxies have a prolonged star formation, at a fairly steady rate (for the last several Gyr) with an IMF (initial mass function of stars) that is not top heavy (i.e most stars formed at any time are lower mass stars and therefore incapable of becoming a SN themselves).
Now that there is no solar neutrino problem what does this theory have to stand on?

The theory states that planets form from material from the progenitor star (as in figure 1) after the SN, but that they somehow retain knowledge of the types of elements present where their orbits were within the progenitor star. This is supposed to explain why terrestial planets are closer to the Sun and gas planets further away, due to mass segregation in the progenitor star. This is despite the fact that the SN has totally mixed the envelope of the star, and spread the material over several LY. How does the thoroughly mixed material know where to separate itself out into?

The minimum mass of a neutron star formed in a conventional SN is 1.4 x that of the Sun, no neutron stars with a mass of less than this has ever been observed how is this reconciled?

Assume that you can form a neutron star smaller than 1.4xMsun though. A neutron star of say 90% of the mass of the Sun would have a radius of ~10km, meaning the density of the outer layers of the Sun must be far below what is measured by Helioseismology or any other method. How is this reconciled?
I have many more but Ill wait for the responses, cheers.
============================================

You are reading the papers out of context.

Read through them again and try to understand the issues involved.

==============================================

I will ask the questions to Prof Oliver
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by astro_uk » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:37 am

One of the most interesting things about star formation is how Uniform it seems to be.
Are you saying in the MIlky Way or some other known galaxy. Becaue each galaxy is at a different stage of evolution.
I mean any galaxy that it is possible to measure this for, through whatever means (spectroscopic or through colour magnitude diagrams). They all show an IMF (initial mass function) that means that vastly more small stars are formed than large ones, there are a million solar mass stars for every star that is 100 times as big, and a hundred solar mass stars for everyone 5 times as big. (i.e ones big enough to undergo a SN). Of course binary star fractions mean that type 1a supernovae can form a few more neutron stars, but still orders of magnitude below what is needed for every star to have a neutron star formed in a SN inside it.
The formation of stars will be dertermined by the accumulation of matter.
What does this even mean? His theory is that there is a neutron star formed by a SN inside every "normal" star, he has to come up with some physics to describe how the first generation of stars dont do this but later ones do. Or of course ignore theromodynamics when it doesnt suit him and argue for an eternal Universe.

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Post by harry » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:11 am

Hello All

Large stars take more time to grow and survive.

The inner core will determine how long it will stay in that form.

A weak inner core means a short life.
=========================================


The Small Cloud of Magellan
Young Stars of NGC 346
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap051117.html

Large Magellanic Cloud
R136: The Massive Stars of 30 Doradus
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap051211.html

30 Doradus: The Tarantula Zone
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap051212.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960524.html
R136 is composed of thousands of hot blue stars, some about 50 times more massive than our Sun
LMC Star Clouds
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951011.html
clouds of young stars forming an arc in the nearby Large Magellanic Cloud, the nearest galaxy to the our Milky Way Galaxy. These stars are situated in a star forming region known as N 51. The stars are so young they shine mostly in blue and ultraviolet light, and so massive their lifetimes are only millions of years - much shorter than the billions of years of lower mass stars like our Sun


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/ ... ason_f.jpg
In this link you are able to see the nova and supernova, just popping up.
Its amazing
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by astro_uk » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:55 am

It is indeed amazing, but big stars dont have short lives because of weak cores, its because they burn their fuel much more quickly than smaller ones. Simple.

And all of the pictures prove my point, there are many more smaller stars present in the star forming regions than big ones.

harry
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Post by harry » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:35 am

Hello Astro

Being big does not mean big in mass.

Some of the smallest stars like quark, neutron and the theoretical preon stars are extremely small.

Have to get back to you. Have to run. Dad and mum are in hospital.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by cosmo_uk » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:44 am

It is in terms of the main sequence. The largest stars are the most massive.

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Re: what is ..............

Post by toejam » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:35 pm

FieryIce wrote:
ta152h0 wrote:What is " false nonsense " ??????????
Actually, this thread is a prime example.
Yes. It has no IGNORE button with which to put you & Craterchains to rest.

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Post by astro_uk » Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:47 am

I second that motion, it would appear that they have been banned from every other science discussion board, unless they start backing up the claims I move that we just act like they dont exist. They clearly court controversy, so lets deprive them of it.

harry
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Post by harry » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:09 am

Hello Astro

Do you understand what you say?

You are talking of the dark ages.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

astro_uk
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Post by astro_uk » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:53 am

No Harry I am not, In a scientific discussion, there needs to be some science. If your going to make scientific claims you have to use the scientific method, otherwise you will be ignored.

I am happy to discuss any claims, as long as they are back up by some maths or some observations. Anything that rests purely on human opinions is not science.

In a further point, I am not denying anyones right to say anything, merely that I will not provide any legitamacy by discussing fairy tales pretending to be science.

harry
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Post by harry » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:53 pm

Hello Astro

I know you are a smart cookie.

Investicate the expansion of the universe.

Investicate the formation of the super clusters. These huge objects need time to form.

Investicate the formation of Hydrogen and Helium by others means rather than saying the Big Bang did it.

Investicate the Back Ground radiation.

Become a leader in the field

and at the end of the day you can confirm how the ball bounces.

Reading through your comments, you are the man.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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