Black Hole Event Horizon

astro_uk · Post by **astro_uk** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:53 am

Of course its logical. Think about water falling down a plughole, it spirals down rapidly, despite the mass responsible for gravity being located 6000km away. (i.e the gravity of the Earth all seems to be concentrated at its centre). If you could measure the temperature of the water at the plughole accurately enough you would see it was warmer than water on the outside of the vortex.
Simple Physics. Or do you now not believe in friction?

We are talking about gravity orders of magnitude stronger, frictional heating can easily heat material up to millions of degrees, more than enough to ionize atoms. The spiralling motion also explains the formation of the magnetic fields, which is produced by separate parcels of material passing close to each other on nearby orbits.

The funny thing is I work with people who work on this, shared an office with one guy who does this. They have spent years researching this. Yet Harry who no grasp of even high school physics seems to think he knows more than them, and people think scientists are arrogant.

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:28 am

Hello Astro

I understand your logic, its just that I do not agree with it.

Maybe some of your workers can talk to me.

Please keep your comments to the subject, and stop being childish. Some peole here may not have the same education as you.

You need to explore the material ejected via the jet streams than you will understand your logic.

astro_uk · Post by **astro_uk** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:48 am

You need to explore the material ejected via the jet streams than you will understand your logic.

I understand my logic Harry, its based on facts and observations. The material in the jets looks exactly as you would expect if material was being evaporated off an accretion disc.

Your "logic" is based on some need to stir controversy where none exists, either that or some deep seated religous convictions that preclude the ability to think in a reasonable manner.

You don't believe the generally held beliefs in any field of science as far as I can tell, do you believe anything, EM?, QM? or what do you think about evolution or global warming?

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:54 am

Hello Astro

Mate have you got it wrong.

Facts and obserservations, mate where are your facts and observations.

and please keep your emotions in your pocket. Soon you wil gain more info, so do not close doors and keep an open mind.

I know where you are coming from. I have been there and done that.
Too old in the tooth.

If you wish to provide info on jets and their ejected matter, I'm quite interested.

Looking at M87

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041211.html

But what powers this cosmic blowtorch? Ultimately, the jet is thought to be produced as matter near the center of M87 swirls toward a spinning, supermassive black hole. Strong electromagnetic forces are generated and eject material away from the black hole along the axis of rotation in a narrow jet

Scientists do not know because they cannot see, but all give an opinion.
Like I said before, What came first the chicken or the egg?

In my opinion the jet is created by the plasma matter within the so called black hole , the MECO

http://www.seds.org/messier/more/m087_h2.html

Streaming out from the center of the galaxy M87 like a cosmic searchlight is one of nature's most amazing phenomena, a jet of electrons and other sub-atomic particles traveling at nearly the speed of light, powered by the central massive object of the galaxy

according to what many astronomers currently think. The jet originates in the disk of superheated gas swirling around this object and is propelled and concentrated by the intense, twisted magnetic fields trapped within this plasma. The light that we see (and the radio emission) is produced by electrons twisting along magnetic field lines in the jet, a process known as synchrotron radiation, which gives the jet its bluish tint.

I understand where many astronmers are coming from. They use the logic found with twisters on earth.

I have the opinion that the electromagnetic gravity convectional currents are originating within and not out from the dense matter. The answe to this would be found in Plasma science.

If the swirling was created by the infalling matter. Where is the vector force to push the matter at close to the speed of light. What is powering all this. I do not think that the black hole would stand idole and look at this swirl without sucking it in.

The Black Hole of M87 is so huge that it takes light over 2 months to cross it. Thats from memory. I have to check on that.

The matter found in jets is complex

Matter from within the core of the black hole
Matter that falls in the jet and broken down.
Matter that is in the way and pushed out.

http://www.newscientistspace.com/articl ... ef=dn10020

Stars being ejected by black holes.

astro_uk · Post by **astro_uk** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:40 am

If the swirling was created by the infalling matter. Where is the vector force to push the matter at close to the speed of light. What is powering all this. I do not think that the black hole would stand idole and look at this swirl without sucking it in.

What are you talking about? This sounds more like ravings than anything else.

The BH is sucking in the accretion disc, thats why its called an accretion disc, the inner edge of the accretion disc is at or near the BH event horizon. Most of the matter in the disc spirals down into the BH, as it goes it gets hot, very hot, very, very hot. This heat accelarates particles from the disc to near the speed of light. Magnetic fields caused by Magnetohydrodynamical forces then funnel this material away from the disc along field lines, where we can see the particles emit the expected synchrotron radiation.

Please for once in your life look at things logically. We can look at BHs, we see accretion discs, we see how much matter they are dumping onto the BH, we see how much energy is given off in jets, the energy in the jets is always much less than the gravitational potential energy of the accreting matter, so we can fully explain jets as being powered by accretion. No need for magic here Harry. A simple self consistent picture that explains the observed facts.

As Dr Skeptic has pointed out all BHs should have jets in your picture, but many do not, you only see a jet when you see an accretion disc.

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:32 am

Hello Astro

Than please explain the process.

I can quote the same logic, which I have done.

When people use words like

What are you talking about? This sounds more like ravings than anything else.

Sounds like a child speaking.

astro_uk · Post by **astro_uk** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:39 am

Harry I have explained the process many times, look at any of the posts I have made above. What don't you understand? Friction? Gravity? Magnetic Fields? I've tried to make it as simple as possible, I'll be honest neither I nor certainly you have the required mathematical skills to make this a rigorous explanation, were talking about the bleeding edge here, it takes 3-6 years of research to get to grips with it. By research I mean the full time type, making graphs running simulations, not the "i looked at wikipedia " type.

At what specific point do you disagree with everyone else that has ever done any serious work on this?

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:48 pm

Hello Astro

I have looked at your posts

Not one explains the actual process. I understand your words and what you are trying to say.

and please do not under estimate my maths.

Give me your best shot.

and please never attack the people on this site.

astro_uk · Post by **astro_uk** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:09 pm

I should apologise if you have taken my posts as ad hominem attacks Harry, usually I would go for the ideas not the man, but of late you haven't actually provided any ideas. From your side it has mostly been blanket denial of facts without any real understanding of where you are coming from or going.

I wouldnt bother rebutting most of what you say except that many who just drift through these boards may take your word as fact.

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:16 am

Hello Astro

I'm also sorry.

I'm also sorry that I do not have the answers. In th last month I think I have read some 50 papers. All are coming from different directions. My brain will have to settle down and re-focus.

I'm very interested in Michael Mozina writing on the "Origins of the universe post"

There are new horizons in cosmology particularly Oliver Manuel and Michael Mozina works and others.

I'm also involved in some heavy projects that have crippled my brain and I may become impatient. Its not in my character.

Please do not think I do not understand your logic. I fully understand. But! I'm unconventional by nature.

So! stay cool and smile.