Inner Core of our sun

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Nereid
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Post by Nereid » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:11 am

Michael Mozina wrote:
Nereid wrote:Is there a 'neutron star' at the core of the Sun, in your idea?
If so, what is its mass?
There was certainly a powerful electromagnetic core in Dr. Kristian Birkeland's laboratory experiments with metallic terellas, so I do tend to lean in the direction of a neutron core as it relates to any published papers I've been involved in.

http://www.catastrophism.com/texts/birkeland/

I believe that the neutron core (and its crust) constitutes no more than 60% of the sun's total mass, and that much of the Nickel and Iron that composes our sun is located in the crust of the neutron star rather than in the shell. I also believe that the iron and nickel atoms that makeup the crust of the neutron star are mostly stripped of electrons, and that charge repulsion, temperature and pressure play a major role in the overall configuration of elements and plasma layers that encircle the core. The inner neutron core rotates once every five minutes, and the electrical interactions that play out between the spinning core and the universe itself plays a large role in the sun's total energy output.
Thanks for this.

What is the minimum mass which this "neutron core (and its crust)" can have, in your idea?

What is the radius of this "neutron core (and its crust)"? Again, 'cannot be much less than {X}; cannot be much more than {Y}', if you please Michael.

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Post by Doum » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:06 am

LOL! Michael Mozina and nereid are same guy, probably Harry. Tought i told ya to go create your own website and talk to yourself. Hmmm , Harry do want to write to himself. Boring you are Harry. Go get treatment.

harry
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Post by harry » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:53 am

Hello Doum

We are not perfect, I'm sorry that I sound boring.

Sounds you have problem. You want to talk about it.

THats funny Neried and Michael and Harry the same person.

I respect everybodies opinion. Sometimes unconventional Ideas are correct, some crank ideas are correct. That does not mean we attack the person. Attack the content and maybe that person may learn from such discussions.

This site is great. If I ever offfend anybody. please let me know. I can change my words but not my ideas.

As for my wife she feels I drive people crazy, because I'm unconventional and never give up on my ideas.

============================================

As for the inner core of our sun.

There must be a ultra dense plasma matter made of some partical that has a very high density.
Able to control the energy release from the core and able to keep the solar envelope under control.
I think that as part of the dense matter neutrons would play a part in some form or another because they can be compacted with little effort. But! there maybe other subatomic paticals playing a role. Since it is very difficult to observe we take a poke at the options.

Hydrogen to be a part of the inner core is not very logical because hydrogen cannot be compacted to a density able to control the heat balance and also to control the solar envelope.

Hey! if this sounds unconventional so be it.

By observing other stars and their varies stages maybe we can one day understand our sun.

Some people say to me , why don't you just keep to the standard models.

Boring, boring, boring,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,boring.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Qev
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Post by Qev » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:52 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:Keep in mind in this model that there are *many* possible energy sources, including electrical interactions with the universe itself, and induction as the plasma moves past solid surface features. There is also hydrogen and helium fusion taking place inside the coronal loops.
I don't give the Electric Universe theory much credit, personally. If there were electric fields of that magnitude floating around the solar system, I think they'd make themselves pretty obvious. I've never heard of fusion occuring in the solar corona; it's hot, but the density is far too low.
According to MECO theory, they never quite form a true event horizon, which may be why jets are typically seen streaming away from the center of what are presumed to be "black holes".
I've always understood jets to be sourced from the accretion disk surrounding black holes, not the holes themselves (considering an event horizon is effectively unescapable).
Well, there is heliosiesmology evidence of a "stratification subsurface" that exists between about .985R and .995R. That isn't the only evidence of a surface however. The RD images, particularly the SOHO RD images give us another way to test the concept. The Doppler images from the Tsunami video give us yet another way to confirm the existence of a shallow stratified surface at as shallow depth.
The images show that there are visible surface features of the Sun that have lifetimes measured in hours or more, certainly. But how does this imply that they are rigid or solid structures?
I'd guess that everytime they "blow" their shell, some of the material might be lost. Powerful electrical interactions with another body may also cause them to degenerate. They may even "shed" neutrons based on normal electrical interactions with the universe.
I'm not sure how you're proposing to get a neutron star hot enough to evaporate material. The energy required to pry neutrons free of that gravitational field would be excessive (I figured it roughly to be around 150MeV, but I'm no particle physicist). You might be able to break bits off of neutron stars in neutron star-neutron star or neutron star-black hole collisions, but the efficiency of this to create 'stellar cores' would be so low as to be useless to your theory.

Where are you getting enough 'neutron star cores' of the correct size to support star formation? For every star that dies in the Milky Way each year, six more are born.
In theory, the lighter elements in the atmosphere would always be over represented. Hydrogen is really "by-product" of what is going on, so every star is likely to have one. Hydrogen and CNO fusion occurs in the coronal loops, so every star is likely to have a helium layer as well. Not every star however may have a neon layer. It depends on what the thicknesses are of each layer.
We see gamma rays from flares on the Sun, but if there were significant fusion going on, wouldn't the gamma ray flux from the Sun be a lot higher? The Sun as it is now isn't a significant source of gamma rays. And again, the density is a bit low on the surface for fusion, isn't it?

If the Sun only has a thin atmospheric layer of hydrogen and helium, why hasn't it all blown off by now, at the temperature the Sun maintains? What's producing enough hydrogen and helium, and transporting it to the surface fast enough, to continuously replenish this atmosphere?
Now that the Solar Neutrino Problem has effectively been solved...
Well, let me begin by saying *maybe* the"problem" has been "solved", and maybe it hasn't. So far, most studies I've read to date simply equate "missing" neutrinos in these experiments as "oscillated" neutrinos. These studies however do not do a good job of ruling out more mundain options like simple scattering or absorption.
The SNO detector in Sudbury is sensitive to all three flavours of neutrino, and has detected them all in the correct amounts, from what I've read. I'd call that 'solved'. Even if 'scattering' or 'absorption' were the cause of the Solar Neutrino problem, by preventing 2/3s of the produced neutrinos from reaching our detectors, that would still mean that core fusion is the primary source of energy for the Sun.

Besides, what process is going to significantly absorb or scatter neutrinos? Our best detectors can barely catch the little devils.

Borrowing from other posts:
Why would you focus there when that is not what I based my case upon in the first place? Why do you also ignore the other kinds of "spheres" that form in space that are not more dense in the center?

http://pof.aip.org/pof/gallery/video/20 ... hflong.mov
I fail to see how that particular video supports this theory. A large, self-gravitating spherical body is not equivalent to a 30cm ball of water in microgravity, dominated by chemical forces. That's like claiming that since one can blow soap bubbles, that the Earth is hollow.

Is there any evidence at all that a body at hydrostatic equilibrium does not get more dense with depth?
I also believe that the iron and nickel atoms that makeup the crust of the neutron star are mostly stripped of electrons, and that charge repulsion, temperature and pressure play a major role in the overall configuration of elements and plasma layers that encircle the core. The inner neutron core rotates once every five minutes, and the electrical interactions that play out between the spinning core and the universe itself plays a large role in the sun's total energy output.
Then it's not a solid crust, is it? If you've stripped the atoms of most of their electrons, then you've got a hot plasma, not a solid surface. The pressure that would be required for it to behave as a solid would be enormous.

And again, spin wouldn't be a significant source of energy for the Sun, because it would rapidly stop spinning if it were. A neutron star of that size has enough rotational energy to power the Sun's output for two (2) years.
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!

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Qev
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Post by Qev » Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:06 pm

harry wrote:As for the inner core of our sun.

There must be a ultra dense plasma matter made of some partical that has a very high density.
Able to control the energy release from the core and able to keep the solar envelope under control.
Fusion and hydrostatic equilibrium seem to do just fine, though, and explain our observations. While new theories are always good to explore, how is the current model failing in a way that requires such a radically different mechanism for the functioning of the Sun?
I think that as part of the dense matter neutrons would play a part in some form or another because they can be compacted with little effort.
I bet the Pauli Exclusion Principle would beg to differ, if it could talk. :lol:
Hydrogen to be a part of the inner core is not very logical because hydrogen cannot be compacted to a density able to control the heat balance and also to control the solar envelope.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'heat balance'. Hydrogen can be compressed to a density and temperature where nuclear fusion can occur, that's all that really matters. The energy produced by fusion counterbalances the inward crush of gravity, leaving the star in equlibrium. It's already a self-regulating system.
By observing other stars and their varies stages maybe we can one day understand our sun.
This I certainly agree with!
Some people say to me , why don't you just keep to the standard models.

Boring, boring, boring,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,boring.
Unfortunately, much of the work in science is tedious and boring. :)
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!

harry
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Post by harry » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:48 am

Hello All

Hello Qev

Right or wrong,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I respect your opinion.


Please read more one Pauli exclisions pronciple.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... li.html#c2
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... i2.html#c2

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ar.html#c3
Electron Degeneracy
Electron degeneracy is a stellar application of the Pauli Exclusion Principle, as is neutron degeneracy. No two electrons can occupy identical states, even under the pressure of a collapsing star of several solar masses. For stellar masses less than about 1.44 solar masses, the energy from the gravitational collapse is not sufficient to produce the neutrons of a neutron star, so the collapse is halted by electron degeneracy to form white dwarfs. This maximum mass for a white dwarf is called the Chandrasekhar limit. As the star contracts, all the lowest electron energy levels are filled and the electrons are forced into higher and higher energy levels, filling the lowest unoccupied energy levels. This creates an effective pressure which prevents further gravitational collapse.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... ec.html#c1

=============================================

http://cosmos.swin.edu.au/lookup.html?e=neutronstar
Neutron stars comprise one of the possible evolutionary end-points of high mass stars. Once the core of the star has completely burned to iron, energy production stops and the core rapidly collapses, squeezing electrons and protons together to form neutrons and neutrinos. The neutrinos easily escape the contracting core but the neutrons pack closer together until their density is equivalent to that of an atomic nucleus. At this point, the neutrons occupy the smallest space possible (in a similar fashion to the electrons in a white dwarf) and, if the core is less than about 3 solar masses, they exert a pressure which is capable of supporting a star. For masses larger than this, even the pressure of neutrons cannot support the star against gravity and it collapses into a stellar black hole. A star supported by neutron degeneracy pressure is known as a 'neutron star', which may be seen as a pulsar if its magnetic field is favourably aligned with its spin axis.
read more of this

==============================================
Introduction to neutron stars

M. Coleman Miller
Associate Professor of Astronomy, University of Maryland

http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/nstar.html

Nice reading, don't agree with it all, but its ok.

==============================================

As for jets: Most books will tell you that the infalling matter release x-ray radiation but some fall short in explaining the inner workings of what actually drives the jet to expell matter thousands of light years away from the black hole that has an extreme hold on matter.

Objects as diverse as X-ray binaries, radio galaxies, quasars, and even our Galactic center, are powered by the gravitational energy released when surrounding gas is sucked into the black hole sitting in their cores, a process astronomers call accretion. Apart from copious radiation, one of the manifestations of this accretion energy release is the production of so-called jets, collimated beams of matter that are expelled from the innermost regions of accretion disks. These jets shine particularly brightly at radio frequencies.
The inner most regions of accretion disks is a place that no one can see. Reminds me of the Black Box at school, move it up and down and workout whats inside.

I cannot see falling matter creating a force field great enough to expell matter away from black holes or neutron stars.

What came first the chicken or the egg?
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by Nereid » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:22 am

Michael Mozina wrote:
Nereid wrote:What is the minimum mass which this "neutron core (and its crust)" can have, in your idea?
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0201/0201434.pdf

Well, technically, the 'minimum' size of a "cool" neutron star is still being debated, but the consensus seems to be that the minimum size of a cool neutron core is appoximately .1 solar masses.
What is the radius of this "neutron core (and its crust)"? Again, 'cannot be much less than {X}; cannot be much more than {Y}', if you please Michael.
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/nstar.html

Well, it definitely can't be as big as Chicago. :) (I liked that link and I've used it myself by the way.)

If we use their figures for a core with a radius of 10 KM for a 1.4 solar mass object, and apply it to a .1 to .6 solar mass object, I guess the radius would work out to be somewhere between 4.15 and 7.54 kilometers. The density could of vary a bit in a lighter neutron core, so the radius is obviously just a rough approximation.
Thanks.

What is the range of values of the average density* of the material in the Sun, between the bottom of the 'solid layer' and the top of the 'neutron star', in your idea, that is consistent with the numbers you have provided?

Separate question: what is the value of 'g' at the surface of this 'solid surface' (per your idea)? By 'g' I mean the local acceleration due to gravity; it's ~9.8 m/sec^2 at the surface of the Earth.

*For avoidance of doubt, a definition: the mass of the Sun, between these two boundaries, divided by the volume of the Sun, between these two boundaries.

harry
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Post by harry » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:13 am

Hello All

Michael you write well.

You maybe be interested in this link, emailed to me by Prof Manuel

http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0501/0501441.pdf

and

<link removed>
Scientists now supporting a new approach to solar physics—the “Iron Sun” — mention neither the Electric Universe nor the “Electric Sun”. But their findings add powerful support to the electric model of the Sun posited by Wallace Thornhill, Donald Scott, and earlier pioneers beginning with engineer Ralph Juergens in the late 60's. It was the electrical theorists who first suggested that surface events, not a hidden nuclear furnace at the Sun’s center, appear to be the source of neutrino production (the subatomic signature of nuclear fusion).
<link removed>
The "Iron Sun" Debate (2)
The Myth of the Neutron Star

In his argument for the “Iron Sun”, Oliver Manuel relies on a popular theoretical concept—the “neutron star”. Electrical theorists, on the other hand, say there is no reason to believe that such exotic stars exist.

Oct 04, 2006
The "Iron Sun" Debate (3)
Exploding the Myth of the Imploding Supernova

<link removed>
When a star called “SK -69 202” exploded on February 24, 1987, becoming “Supernova 1987A”, the shock to conventional theory was as great as the visual wonder in the heavens. The event did not “emulate the theory”, but rather appears to have involved catastrophic electrical discharge.
<link removed>
Oct 05, 2006
The "Iron Sun" Debate (4)
Meteorites and the Modern Myth of Solar System Genesis

In his “Iron Sun” theory, Oliver Manuel has developed an unorthodox answer to puzzles concerning the birth of the solar system, recorded in meteorites and lunar samples. But in interpreting these samples, he has fallen prey to a conventional myth as to their origins.


There is more but for now I'm interested in your thoughts about the above links.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:15 pm

Speculation ≠ Science

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Post by Nereid » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:31 pm

harry,

As I think I may have said before, quoting the sticky at the top of this section, this is a scientific forum.

However you may wish to describe material found on those EU/PU/PC/ES webpages, "scientific" most certainly is NOT an adjective you can use (and be honest about it).

If you are interested in understanding more about why, you may check out this page (and the links contained therein); if you are interested in presenting a case, which you would have to defend, for these ideas, as science, you may do so on that site (and, of course, there are hundreds of other internet discussion fora which have much lower standards, or do not require adherence to any scientific methods at all).

Questions are welcome here; promotion of pseudo-science (and worse, anti-science) material is not.

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Qev
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Post by Qev » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:06 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:Well, it definitely can't be as big as Chicago. :) (I liked that link and I've used it myself by the way.)

If we use their figures for a core with a radius of 10 KM for a 1.4 solar mass object, and apply it to a .1 to .6 solar mass object, I guess the radius would work out to be somewhere between 4.15 and 7.54 kilometers. The density could of vary a bit in a lighter neutron core, so the radius is obviously just a rough approximation.
The radius of a neutron star decreases with increasing mass, not the other way around. The approximate relationship is R ~ M^-(1/3). So a 0.1 Ms neutron star should be larger in radius than a 1.4 Ms neutron star, by a factor of about 2.5.
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Post by Nereid » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:00 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:
Nereid wrote: Thanks.

What is the range of values of the average density* of the material in the Sun, between the bottom of the 'solid layer' and the top of the 'neutron star', in your idea, that is consistent with the numbers you have provided?
I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for here. Until I have some reason based on evidence to think otherwise, I would have to assume that the "average" density of the sun is as it is described in current theory. The average density of the plasmas between the core and the shell would have to be a little little lighter than the average density of water assuming the sun has a very "small" amount of neutron material in the center.
And the range of values is .....?
Separate question: what is the value of 'g' at the surface of this 'solid surface' (per your idea)? By 'g' I mean the local acceleration due to gravity; it's ~9.8 m/sec^2 at the surface of the Earth.
Well, again I would defer to the numbers that are currently assumed. In other words, I would assume for the time being that these forces are as described at the level of the photosphere.
And that number is ....?
*For avoidance of doubt, a definition: the mass of the Sun, between these two boundaries, divided by the volume of the Sun, between these two boundaries.
Well, I currently have no evidence to suggest that the average overall density is not as described by current theory. I would simply suggest the arragement is somewhat different than current theory, and that pressure, temperature and charge repulsion have a role in the inner configuration of plasmas.
Hold that thought; we may need it later.

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Qev
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Post by Qev » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:20 pm

Michael Mozina wrote:
Qev wrote:The radius of a neutron star decreases with increasing mass, not the other way around.
Well, while I readily (already did) admit that "density" may have an influence, you will have to demonstrate that for me, since no other "material" in nature that I'm aware of behaves that way. When you add more water, you get a greater volume of water. When you subtract water, the "volume" of the water decreases. Neutron material is already pretty densely packed. Why would you expect it behave differently than say "water" as it relates to density concerns? What holds up the mostly iron and Nickel crust of the neutron star in your opinion?
Neutron stars and white dwarfs don't behave like water, or any other 'everyday matter' because they aren't 'everyday matter'. They are degenerate matter, and pressure, density, and temperature have a different relationship under those conditions.
The approximate relationship is R ~ M^-(1/3).
Why would that occur, and for how long? In other words, when would you expect compression to slow down, and internal resistive forces to take over?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'how long'. As long as the material remains in a degenerate state, that relationship is going to hold (again, it's approximate; the exact equation-of-state for neutron stars isn't currently known). In a degenerate material, increasing temperature does not increase the pressure (well, it does, but only negligably), so you can't reach a sort of thermal equilibrium like you do in a fusing star. The force of gravity is balanced by Pauli exclusion, which is a situation you just don't see here on Earth.

Here is a mathematical derivation for degeneracy pressure in a white dwarf star, which is a less-exteme case than a neutron star, but still applicable.
So a 0.1 Ms neutron star should be larger in radius than a 1.4 Ms neutron star, by a factor of about 2.5.
Well, just for arguement sake, let's entertain that idea for a moment. Even if that were the case, the size of the core would still be smaller than the error bars associated with current heliosiesmology kerneling techniques. I see no way even under that circumstance to know for sure what's at the "core" of the sun using current heliosiesmology techniques at this moment in time.
My point was more that you're missing an understanding of even the basic features of neutron stars. How can you pin a theory on something you don't even really understand?
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Post by harry » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:37 am

Hello All

Michael like I said, I like your logic.

But! there are two points

1) you said the the surface temperature is the highest.

The core temp would be higest temp, the energy required to keep neutrons or a superfluid complex intact would be extreme. The electromagnatic foces within this neutron superfluid will hold back the release of the heat to the surrounding making it look cooler. Just thinking aloud.



2)
The average density of the plasmas between the core and the shell would have to be a little little lighter than the average density of water assuming the sun has a very "small" amount of neutron material in the center.
If this was so, than the core would be larger and denser.

This point I do not understand.

Other than that, at this moment I'm trying to come to understand your papers written by you and Oliver Manuel

http://www.omatumr.com/abstracts2006/OC ... OCycle.pdf
and a few other papers.

===========================================

Hilto Ratcliffe and Oliver manuel have emailed me some homework, several papers to read. Cutting edge info on the sun and reasons why the Big Bang does not work.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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