Black Hole Event Horizon

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andyrint
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Post by andyrint » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:51 pm

Back on topic - more or less...
How come a black hole is black if photons have no mass? Surely for gravity to act on something, that thing has to have mass?

And if photons do have mass then how can they travel at the speed of light?

This should be easy enough for someone to en-lighten me :)

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Post by Doum » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:33 pm

Hi Andyrint (Harry?). Light is also bent by space-time and light do hav mass. Its very small but its enough for a solar sailing ship to use it. (Just in case you ask, solar sailing ship do not use solar wind, it use light from the sun only.). So photon cannot escape the event horizon of a black hole (Gravity) and at the same time the black hole bent space time a lot. Let a specialist correct me please with the correct answer.

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Post by harry » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:12 pm

Hello Doum

Smile

I remember back in 1967 I was reading a paper on the same subject. Solar sailing.

========================================

Almost nothing can escape a black hole.
Once matter is broken down to the most basic particals it is compacted over 10^35. Thats in the same volume of a hydrogen atom you can fit 10^35 atoms.
The inner workings of the huge condensed matter (Black hole) creates a vortex of electromagnetic fields that creates a jet stream that is able to eject matter back into space.
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Post by astro_uk » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:24 am

Hi Doum

that is not technically right. Light is massless, but it does have momentum, as a force is simply a change of momentum, it is possible for light to impart a force on an object simply by hitting it, without light needing to have mass.

The rest is correct though, gravity does not "attract" anything, gravity bends space and time, to the light (and in fact anything moving in a gravitational potential) it seems to be moving in a straight line, but space itself is curved such that it seems it is moving in orbit around the object.

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Post by harry » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:15 pm

Hello All

Astro I understand the logic behind the Big Bang. I used to push it, because I thought that was the right model. It took me many years to understand its errors and the missleading directions by many scientists.

Look, do not take my advice. You will need to self discover the errors.

I have not got the time at present to give you all the info.

My work, will keep my brain busy for the next few months, day and night.

I just come onto this post, just to keep in contact.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

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Post by Doum » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:42 pm

Thank you Astro.

Now it bring another question to me. If light transmit momentum to the light sail. Does the photon loose an energy of sumkind after it leave the light sail (Changing wavelenght or does it reflect itself in exact the same energy level.)?

No Harry,

Black hole do not eject matter, what we see going out as high energy particule and X-ray are coming from matter that are thorn apart by the huge gravity(Bent of spacetime) of the black hole. That matter have not reach the event horizon yet, but it is falling in for good. High energy create by that thorn apart of matter is huge and can be expell before that matter reach the event horizon. Once the matter is in the event horizon, then nothing leave the black hole. Its in there for good. Harry you have your beleive and i have mine. Please dont tell me what you think cause i saw all of what you beleive for months and its unbeleivable. I am more interest in science then wild imagination. If someday someone come with sumthing new i will certainly look to it. Cya all.

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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:53 pm

Hi Doum,

Harry has both tunnel vision and a short memory when it comes to evidence against his theory, your arguments have been covered a multitude of time in a multitude of threads. The only way to win at his game is to make him stay on topic, which he avoids like the plague - hoping evidence detrimental to his theory will just go away and be forgotten so he can resurrect it as something new and grand. I refuse to acknowledge any of his arguments until he responds to my challenge on quantum mechanics (which I know he doesn't understand). Keep in mind he doesn't have the science background to be a good ambassador for the lunatic fringe, he displays his knowledge vicariously through web trash written by people starved for attention more interested in personal gratification than accurate science.


Please dont tell me what you think cause i saw all of what you beleive for months and its unbeleivable. I am more interest in science then wild imagination.
A big AMEN to that!
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Post by astro_uk » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:50 pm

Hi Doum

Yes the photon does lose energy, it is essentially redshifted so its wavelength increases.

I did a little bit of research into solar sails in my undergrad days, the important thing is that for maximum propulsion the sail has to be reflective. Naively you would assume it is better for the sail to absorb the photon, but when you do this the sail heats up and reradiates the energy as lower energy photons. Some of these will be emitted in the forward direction meaning that they cancel out some of the thrust. So the best result is to have a perfectly reflective surface.

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Post by Wadsworth » Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:49 am

astro_uk wrote:Hi Doum

Yes the photon does lose energy, it is essentially redshifted so its wavelength increases.

I did a little bit of research into solar sails in my undergrad days, the important thing is that for maximum propulsion the sail has to be reflective. Naively you would assume it is better for the sail to absorb the photon, but when you do this the sail heats up and reradiates the energy as lower energy photons. Some of these will be emitted in the forward direction meaning that they cancel out some of the thrust. So the best result is to have a perfectly reflective surface.
So, when light is reflected off of objects, it does undergo a slight redshift? When a photon travels through extremely long distances, billions of light years worth, is it not believable that it becomes significantly redshifted.. Even say, down to a microwave wavelength, eventually dispersing out to a constantly waining CMB :wink:

.............

On a more realistic note (but none the less still off topic): When we look into the past and see a higher/hotter CMB shouldn't it be completely uniform no matter which direction we look? According to this, it isn't, which would imply that the CMB doesn't solely rely on expansion (time), but relies mainly on which direction you point your antenna.. How then is this 'anisotropy' of CMB explainable by a central starting point at t=0@T=3000k and a uniform decay ever since?

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Post by astro_uk » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:06 pm

So, when light is reflected off of objects, it does undergo a slight redshift? When a photon travels through extremely long distances, billions of light years worth, is it not believable that it becomes significantly redshifted.. Even say, down to a microwave wavelength, eventually dispersing out to a constantly waining CMB Wink
Simple answer no. And the reason is related to your next question. To redshift light by that much would require many scattering events, each scattering event would essentially be random and this would eventually tend to destroy any information about the original path of the light. This would mean that the light would become a diffuse glow with no discernable structure.

We do see structure in the CMB however, some of this is almost certainly due to contamination from foregrounds (i.e. the galaxy). The rest is more interesting. The structure is thought to be the remains of a period of rapid inflation in the early universe (within the first fraction of a second). During this period the Universe expanded so quickly that Quantum fluctuations got expanded into a macroscopic size. These QM fluctuations caused hot and cold spots, which we can still see to this day. The hot and cold spots also show the position of where structure would later form. The hot regions had more matter in them, and eventually formed the most dense regions (galaxies and galaxy clusters). The cold spots had less matter and therefore became voids with few galaxies in them.

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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:44 pm

So, when light is reflected off of objects, it does undergo a slight redshift? When a photon travels through extremely long distances, billions of light years worth, is it not believable that it becomes significantly redshifted.. Even say, down to a microwave wavelength, eventually dispersing out to a constantly waining CMB Wink
The reflected light can also be blue shifted, dependent on the direction of the reflective object. The change in the wavelength = the + or - speed of the object
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Post by Wadsworth » Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:39 am

Dr. Skeptic wrote: The reflected light can also be blue shifted, dependent on the direction of the reflective object. The change in the wavelength = the + or - speed of the object
Hmm, A light booster eh. So if a photon hits say a mirror traveling .5C towards the photon, the photon would end up with a velocity 1.5C in the opposite direction.?

Once the wavelength is decreased to that of Gamma, and then beyond what happens to our photon? Becomes a nice open ended vibrating string :?

Why couldn't' we do this experiment in one of our super accelerators?

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Post by Qev » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:28 am

Wadsworth wrote:Hmm, A light booster eh. So if a photon hits say a mirror traveling .5C towards the photon, the photon would end up with a velocity 1.5C in the opposite direction.?
What? No, photons always travel at c. It would gain energy, not velocity, ie. the wavelength would decrease.
Once the wavelength is decreased to that of Gamma, and then beyond what happens to our photon? Becomes a nice open ended vibrating string :?

Why couldn't' we do this experiment in one of our super accelerators?
I don't think there's really a cap on the frequency of light, although it gets harder to generate higher frequencies due to the energies required. I could be wrong though. :)
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Post by harry » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:56 am

Hello All

Photons in a normal vacuum will travel at C.

What influences the speed is

Electromagnetic
Gravity
and the substance that it goes through.

Extreme cases Black Holes, quark stars, neutron stars will influence the pull or push.
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Post by Doum » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:53 pm

Thank-you Astro and Skeptic for your answers.

Wadsworth,
As for the high energy of a photon, it must pass trough material if its energy is high enough (The photon wont get any energy from the light sail cause it will go trough it.). We are transperce by many high energy ray (Photons.) all the time (Day and night) and they dont get much more energy transfer i think. Some of them do crush on the ground or in some of our cell in the body. But then they loose energy, they aint gaining any. So if someday we travel at .5c then the high energy photon we encounter on our route (Moving toward it will make it a shorter wavelenght to us.) will increase in number because of our speed and that radiation will be more mortal for us unless we have a good shield. I hope i understand the photon well enough. :) :roll:

It was fun trying to answer that. But to get a better answer i will need personal research on the subject. Or a good intervention from a scientist. :wink:

[/quote]

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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:02 am

Once the wavelength is decreased to that of Gamma, and then beyond what happens to our photon? Becomes a nice open ended vibrating string? :?

If a photon's wavelength became 1 planck's length it's eV or momentum mass would = ∞ .

The wavelength of a photons is limited by the events that create them. It requires a very grand event to create gamma rays, I believe from a few active galaxies and in the Crab Nebula, observations show limits up to about 10^27 Hz = 5 x 10^12 eV. At energies exceeding 10^30 Hz the basic particle physics and gamma ray production become undefined, The energies above 10^30 Hz are in the realms of the "Particle Soup" in the aftermath of the Big Bang.
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Post by Wadsworth » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:37 am

interesting...

Only if we could 'dissect' a photon. They must have mass.
Or at the very least, invoke a gravity arc.

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Post by harry » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:27 am

Hello All

Doum said
Black hole do not eject matter, what we see going out as high energy particule and X-ray are coming from matter that are thorn apart by the huge gravity(Bent of spacetime) of the black hole. That matter have not reach the event horizon yet, but it is falling in for good
You are mistaken.

Read more info on Black Holes
http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-black- ... _5756.html
A team of astronomers from The Netherlands and the UK has discovered a vast "jet-powered bubble" formed in the gas around a black hole in the Milky Way.

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The discovery means that for decades scientists have been severely underestimating how much power black holes pump back into the universe instead of merely swallowing material across their event horizons.

Jets of energy and particles flowing outwards at close to the speed of light are a common feature of all accreting black holes, ranging from supermassive black holes at the centres of active galactic nuclei to stellar-mass black holes in X-ray binary systems within our own Galaxy.

However, for the first time European astronomers have now discovered a large bubble surrounding an X-ray binary system. The bubble is approximately 10 light years across, and is predicted to be expanding with a speed of around 100 km per second (225,000 mph).

It appears to have been formed by the action of a powerful outflow or "jet" of energy and matter from the black hole over a time scale of about a million years.

The new, detailed radio observations of a black hole called Cygnus X-1 show a ring of radio emission around a bubble in the nearby interstellar gas - the result of a strong shock that develops at the location where the jet strikes the rarefied gas of the interstellar medium.

The jet that created the bubble seems to be carrying more than 100,000 times the total luminosity of our Sun, and yet the only evidence for this incredible flow of energy is its impact on the tenuous gas between the stars, resulting in the expanding bubble.

"We already knew that supermassive black holes at the centre of other galaxies produce enormous amounts of energy, but this finding proves that something similar is happening in our backyard," said Elena Gallo of the University of Amsterdam, lead author of the paper which will appear in this week's issue of Nature.

"Remarkably, it also means that, after a massive star dies and turns into a black hole, it is still capable of energising its surroundings, by means of completely different mechanisms."

"The importance of this result is that it demonstrates that black holes such as Cygnus X-1, of which there may be millions within our galaxy alone, do not swallow all of the infalling matter and energy, but rather redirect a considerable fraction of it back into space," added Rob Fender of the University of Southampton, second author on the paper.

"We knew about jets from black holes and expected to discover some interaction of the jet's energy with the gas in our Milky Way, but the size and energy content of this bubble came as a surprise," added co-author Dr. Christian Kaiser, also of the University of Southampton.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/25 ... les_green/
The question for the Chandra team was how much energy would be required for the jets to produce these bubbles, in some cases thousands of light years across? The answer, according to Steve Allen of Stanford University, is a trillion trillion trillion watts.

The upshot of this fuel-efficient conversion rate, Reuters notes, is that big black holes theoretically have enough gas to keep firing for hundreds of billions of years, way beyond the current estimated age of the universe - a modest 13.7bn years.

A knock-on effect of the black holes' emissions, says Kim Weaver of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre, is that the outpouring of energy heats up the gas surrounding the galactic centre, thereby preventing stars from forming from cooling gaseous matter.

Weaver said: "This is one way to keep the stars from forming and letting the galaxies grow bigger."


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http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0602/0602453.pdf

MECO objects and jets

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Post by Qev » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:26 am

The jets are not coming out of the black hole itself, harry. They're being generated by the disk of accreting matter around the black hole.
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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:41 am

This information had been relayed to him times to numerous to mention, you may as well pull up your chair and talk to a fencepost.
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Post by harry » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:34 pm

Hello All

You are greatly mistaken.

Such a simple topic and you get it wrong.

Jets are created by the Ultra dense plasma matter.

Dr Skeptic if you can prove to me different than do so.

Similar are the jets created by Neutron stars , quark stars, the theoretical Preon stars and the so called Black Holes.

Think about for a second.

What creates the Jet?

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Dr Skeptic just because I do not agree with you does not give you the right for the negative comments.

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Most papers will say
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a ... 0923a.html
However, it is not that jets escape from inside the event horizon. Nothing can escape from an event horizon, by definition! Instead, it is thought that jets originate in the accretion disk that surrounds the event horizon.

A fluid falling onto a small object usually cannot fall directly onto it --- most of the matter will miss the object initially, rotate around it, and only gradually be able to hit the central object. Think of draining your bathtub: Accretion disks are the celestial equivalent of this phenomenon, and can be found around black holes, neutron stars, white dwarfs, or around ordinary stars (planets are believed to form from an accretion disk around a protostar).

Accretion disks around a variety of objects seem to be able to produce jets (protostars certainly do, in addition to accreting black holes). It is just that the ones from an accreting black hole tend to be the fastest and the most spectacular. A general rule of thumb is that the speed of a jet is about the same as the escape velocity of the central object --- so the jets from accreting black holes are at near the speed of light, while protostar jets are much more leisurely.

Although accretion disks have sufficient energy to eject a small fraction of the infalling material as jets, it is not clear exactly how. The accretion disks are thought to generate tangled-up magnetic field, which is probably what collimates the jets. However, astrophysicists are still working out the details of how material is lifted up from the accretion disk in the first place, and how exactly it is that the accelerating force (probably radiation pressure) can overcome the gravity of the central object.
Some theorists do think that there is something special about jets from black holes, and that an intrinsic property of black holes helps create such powerful jets. Other theorists disagree.

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info on jets

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2006/m87/
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2006/m ... ml#m87_low

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Plasma cosmology

http://www.matter-antimatter.com/plasma_cosmology.htm
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object ... ctid=39706
Magnetic reconnection is a key physical process in space and laboratory plasmas and its macroscopic consequences are numerous. To name a few, it is the physical process responsible for solar flares, tremendous solar explosion sometimes billion times more powerful than an atomic bomb
Magnetic reconnection is the process whereby magnetic field lines from different magnetic domains collide and reconnect, changing the overall magnetic field topology [Animation 1]. This topological change leads to the mixing of previously separated plasmas. It also efficiently converts magnetic field energy to particle energy, generating reconnection jets (along the horizontal white arrows on animation 1) and plasma heating
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http://www.cips.mpg.de/cips_home.html
Active Galactic Nuclei (AGN) are galaxies in which the energy output from the central nucleus exceeds the bolometric luminosity of the stellar population by several orders of magnitude. As a substantial fraction of this luminosity is emitted at higher energies X-ray observations provide the best tool for a study of the physical conditions of the central engine of these objects.
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http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2006/m ... ml#m87_low
See the jet images.

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http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downl ... fv%8En.pdf
If you get the chance read this link.

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http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/people/alfven.html
Interesting reading

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http://www.matter-antimatter.com/plasma_cosmology.htm

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Darn I lost some info.

I will come back to this later.
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Post by Dr. Skeptic » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:12 pm

Dr Skeptic if you can prove to me different than do so.

Similar are the jets created by Neutron stars , quark stars, the theoretical Preon stars and the so called Black Holes.

Think about for a second.

What creates the Jet?
The assimilation of accretion disks cause the jets. Proven: the larger the accretion disk the larger the jets - no accretion disk = no jets. For your theory to be true all back holes and neutron stars would require a calcuable jet proportional to size/density. Observations prove they absolutely do not! (Astronomy 101)
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Post by harry » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:09 am

Hello Dr Skeptic
The assimilation of accretion disks cause the jets. Proven: the larger the accretion disk the larger the jets - no accretion disk = no jets. For your theory to be true all back holes and neutron stars would require a calcuable jet proportional to size/density. Observations prove they absolutely do not! (Astronomy 101)
I'm aware of this info.

It does not explain the driving force that pushes matter away from the Black holes for thousands of light years.

There is a missing link. I'm not trying to be difficult. Just want to know.

I do believe that the Black holes via jet streams serve as a mechanism to recycle matter back to the universe. We are in a field that nobody knows.
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Post by astro_uk » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:28 pm

It does not explain the driving force that pushes matter away from the Black holes for thousands of light years.
The simple answer is friction. Matter in accretion disc rubs against each other converting the gravitational potential energy into heat. The heat evaporates protons and electrons from the disc, they are then funnelled by magnetic fields also produced by the disc. These form the Jets.

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Post by harry » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:59 am

Hello All


Hi Astro

Your explanation does not seem logical. You need the interaction of the main power house that is close by, and that is the core of the compact matter, that somehow electromagnetic convectional currents that creates a vector force so great that it is able to push matter close to the speed of light. How infalling matter playes a part, who knows. It just maybe a chicken and the egg story.

Look at Neutron star, pulsars. Same principle.

These jets play a part in all stars little or large. They aid in convectional currents that keep on mixing solar matter and keep the star stable. Thats another discussion.

Hey! I could be wrong. But thats my opinion.

Imagine if I agreed with everyone. I would be out with my wife more.
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