Actually, if you look at the first APOD picture closely, the streak is shorter and narrower as if slower OR coming toward the camera. It then gets longer and fatter before shrinking in length.Ben wrote:If the APOD animation is a good indication, the object appears to have slowed down rapidly. It starts off as a thin streak and appears to be coming closer as it's aspect increases, and it suddenly seems to slow down. What do you think?
Which satellite is this?
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Lonnie
Re: APOD Feb 8th 2005 Haleakala NSL animation
Interceptor rocket from Vandenburg?
well it COULD be that, as it was heading from west to east. THe interceptor would have to have been launched from west of Hawaii. Launches from Vandenburgh, go east to west. Bill Smith
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Flashman
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Hawaiian Starman
eyewitness account
I posted this earlier on page 5, however, to keep it all fresh, since I seem to be the only eye witness throughout this thread, here's the post again:
_________
Ok. Here's an eyewitness account. I had forgotten about this event until I saw the Astro Picture of the Day site earlier this evening.
I live in South Kona on the Big Island. I awoke in the very early AM. The sky was quite clear that AM. As I gazed up towards the zenith, tracking close to Leo was a very large "white blob". Being a frequent star gazer my initial response was "What the f#$# is that"!. I have never seen an object like it before. It's size was approximately twice, maybe a little more, than the Full Moon diameter.
After watching it track very slowly for about 10 minutes, I decided it was worth a look in my telescope. I have a 4" Vernonscope Refractor. Magnification was 20x. The wide field revealed a very soft light - no it was not a weather balloon as others have suggested - with stars visible behind it. Rather than some distinct object it seemed that a light was shining on part of the sky!
Even stranger was what I observed on the southern side of the object. About 3 full moon diameters away was a small dot of pale yellow/white light that looked and tracked like a satellite, however, moved much slower. Don't know about distance above the Earth, however, if it was in the atmosphere, there was no sound of any engine noise (I live in a very quiet area of the Island and any atmospheric sound from an airplane etc. would be audible). Also, there was no observable beam of light coming from the small object.
From the time I picked up the object until it disappeared into the East about 45 minutes later, it remained "parallel" to the "white blob", never varying its distance or speed. I have observed airplanes across the sky here, and this was not moving like an airplane. This tells me the object's distance from the Earth Surface was significantly higher.
One impression was a possible UFO, however, as I mentioned, there was no erratic pattern in its flight. Certainly doesn't rule it out, however, from what I've read (no I've never seen a UFO) UFO objects usually fly in erratic patterns.
Curious if anyone else saw this event Naked Eye???
Posted the above again since it seems to be getting lost in the evolving discussion. Also, seems like this is the only eyewitness account.
As I have read the various explanations, the "fuel dump" seems like a plausable explanation. Other things to consider:
- the "object's" brightness remained consistent during my observation (around 45 minutes). I'd say the magnitude was definitely on the minus side of the scale. Very easy naked eye object. It was not as visually bright as Arctaurus. However, since it covered a significantly larger part of the sky, visual magnitude was difficult to discern. The magnitude of the companion "satellite" or whatever it was, probably would be around 8 or 9 magnitude - definitely not naked eye (sky visibility was very good as the Southern Milky Way was quite vivid.
- there was only 1 small object tracking to the right of the white blob. If there was a second piece to the Centaur rocket, I didn't see it telescopically.
- Would a very high altitude account for the apparent speed of the object? Certainly, the slowest satellite I have ever seen.
- the shape of the blob was somewhat circular. As I mentioned, at least twice the Moon diameter, maybe 3 times. Shape did not change during observation period.
- Curious about the "fuel dump" scenario. At what altitude does a fuel dump take place? Does this occur in the atmosphere? or in outer space? Certainly, seeing stars behind the object would indicate some type of out-gassing taking place.
- Color of the object was pretty much white/creamy throughout observation period.
- Mauna Kea and Haleakala are about 40 - 50 km apart.
- While UFO is one possible explanation, I would expect to see some deviation in the object's track for this scenario to be plausible (maybe the ET was using "cruise control".
My impression after watching the object for some time was I was seeing a possible science experiment. Hence the "fuel dump" seems the most rational explanation, however, in this day and age, "rational" is not always the right answer
_________
Ok. Here's an eyewitness account. I had forgotten about this event until I saw the Astro Picture of the Day site earlier this evening.
I live in South Kona on the Big Island. I awoke in the very early AM. The sky was quite clear that AM. As I gazed up towards the zenith, tracking close to Leo was a very large "white blob". Being a frequent star gazer my initial response was "What the f#$# is that"!. I have never seen an object like it before. It's size was approximately twice, maybe a little more, than the Full Moon diameter.
After watching it track very slowly for about 10 minutes, I decided it was worth a look in my telescope. I have a 4" Vernonscope Refractor. Magnification was 20x. The wide field revealed a very soft light - no it was not a weather balloon as others have suggested - with stars visible behind it. Rather than some distinct object it seemed that a light was shining on part of the sky!
Even stranger was what I observed on the southern side of the object. About 3 full moon diameters away was a small dot of pale yellow/white light that looked and tracked like a satellite, however, moved much slower. Don't know about distance above the Earth, however, if it was in the atmosphere, there was no sound of any engine noise (I live in a very quiet area of the Island and any atmospheric sound from an airplane etc. would be audible). Also, there was no observable beam of light coming from the small object.
From the time I picked up the object until it disappeared into the East about 45 minutes later, it remained "parallel" to the "white blob", never varying its distance or speed. I have observed airplanes across the sky here, and this was not moving like an airplane. This tells me the object's distance from the Earth Surface was significantly higher.
One impression was a possible UFO, however, as I mentioned, there was no erratic pattern in its flight. Certainly doesn't rule it out, however, from what I've read (no I've never seen a UFO) UFO objects usually fly in erratic patterns.
Curious if anyone else saw this event Naked Eye???
Posted the above again since it seems to be getting lost in the evolving discussion. Also, seems like this is the only eyewitness account.
As I have read the various explanations, the "fuel dump" seems like a plausable explanation. Other things to consider:
- the "object's" brightness remained consistent during my observation (around 45 minutes). I'd say the magnitude was definitely on the minus side of the scale. Very easy naked eye object. It was not as visually bright as Arctaurus. However, since it covered a significantly larger part of the sky, visual magnitude was difficult to discern. The magnitude of the companion "satellite" or whatever it was, probably would be around 8 or 9 magnitude - definitely not naked eye (sky visibility was very good as the Southern Milky Way was quite vivid.
- there was only 1 small object tracking to the right of the white blob. If there was a second piece to the Centaur rocket, I didn't see it telescopically.
- Would a very high altitude account for the apparent speed of the object? Certainly, the slowest satellite I have ever seen.
- the shape of the blob was somewhat circular. As I mentioned, at least twice the Moon diameter, maybe 3 times. Shape did not change during observation period.
- Curious about the "fuel dump" scenario. At what altitude does a fuel dump take place? Does this occur in the atmosphere? or in outer space? Certainly, seeing stars behind the object would indicate some type of out-gassing taking place.
- Color of the object was pretty much white/creamy throughout observation period.
- Mauna Kea and Haleakala are about 40 - 50 km apart.
- While UFO is one possible explanation, I would expect to see some deviation in the object's track for this scenario to be plausible (maybe the ET was using "cruise control".
My impression after watching the object for some time was I was seeing a possible science experiment. Hence the "fuel dump" seems the most rational explanation, however, in this day and age, "rational" is not always the right answer
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SaKaMoNi
I will ask again: if the object is coming towards earth and is slowing down, is that not controlled flight? (accelleration of gravity)
The other possibility is moving away from us (out of atmosphere or further into space) it is slowing down - or gives the appearance of reduction in velocity? I have no ideas if that's the case.
The other possibility is moving away from us (out of atmosphere or further into space) it is slowing down - or gives the appearance of reduction in velocity? I have no ideas if that's the case.
Re: eyewitness account
Hawaiian Starman wrote:I posted this earlier on page 5, however, to keep it all fresh, since I seem to be the only eye witness throughout this thread, here's the post again:
_________
Ok. Here's an eyewitness account. I had forgotten about this event until I saw the Astro Picture of the Day site earlier this evening.
I live in South Kona on the Big Island. I awoke in the very early AM. The sky was quite clear that AM. As I gazed up towards the zenith, tracking close to Leo was a very large "white blob". Being a frequent star gazer my initial response was "What the f#$# is that"!. I have never seen an object like it before. It's size was approximately twice, maybe a little more, than the Full Moon diameter.
After watching it track very slowly for about 10 minutes, I decided it was worth a look in my telescope. I have a 4" Vernonscope Refractor. Magnification was 20x. The wide field revealed a very soft light - no it was not a weather balloon as others have suggested - with stars visible behind it. Rather than some distinct object it seemed that a light was shining on part of the sky!
Even stranger was what I observed on the southern side of the object. About 3 full moon diameters away was a small dot of pale yellow/white light that looked and tracked like a satellite, however, moved much slower. Don't know about distance above the Earth, however, if it was in the atmosphere, there was no sound of any engine noise (I live in a very quiet area of the Island and any atmospheric sound from an airplane etc. would be audible). Also, there was no observable beam of light coming from the small object.
From the time I picked up the object until it disappeared into the East about 45 minutes later, it remained "parallel" to the "white blob", never varying its distance or speed. I have observed airplanes across the sky here, and this was not moving like an airplane. This tells me the object's distance from the Earth Surface was significantly higher.
One impression was a possible UFO, however, as I mentioned, there was no erratic pattern in its flight. Certainly doesn't rule it out, however, from what I've read (no I've never seen a UFO) UFO objects usually fly in erratic patterns.
Curious if anyone else saw this event Naked Eye???
Posted the above again since it seems to be getting lost in the evolving discussion. Also, seems like this is the only eyewitness account.
As I have read the various explanations, the "fuel dump" seems like a plausable explanation. Other things to consider:
- the "object's" brightness remained consistent during my observation (around 45 minutes). I'd say the magnitude was definitely on the minus side of the scale. Very easy naked eye object. It was not as visually bright as Arctaurus. However, since it covered a significantly larger part of the sky, visual magnitude was difficult to discern. The magnitude of the companion "satellite" or whatever it was, probably would be around 8 or 9 magnitude - definitely not naked eye (sky visibility was very good as the Southern Milky Way was quite vivid.
- there was only 1 small object tracking to the right of the white blob. If there was a second piece to the Centaur rocket, I didn't see it telescopically.
- Would a very high altitude account for the apparent speed of the object? Certainly, the slowest satellite I have ever seen.
- the shape of the blob was somewhat circular. As I mentioned, at least twice the Moon diameter, maybe 3 times. Shape did not change during observation period.
- Curious about the "fuel dump" scenario. At what altitude does a fuel dump take place? Does this occur in the atmosphere? or in outer space? Certainly, seeing stars behind the object would indicate some type of out-gassing taking place.
- Color of the object was pretty much white/creamy throughout observation period.
- Mauna Kea and Haleakala are about 40 - 50 km apart.
- While UFO is one possible explanation, I would expect to see some deviation in the object's track for this scenario to be plausible (maybe the ET was using "cruise control".
My impression after watching the object for some time was I was seeing a possible science experiment. Hence the "fuel dump" seems the most rational explanation, however, in this day and age, "rational" is not always the right answer
What you have just described sounds a lot like some tests done in the 80s. THere were a numer of canisters of different gasses launched very high up to look at effects of the Solar wind - some were argon and other gasses and they floressed in the solar radation. Anyone else remember these and think this might be the case? It would make sense that a smaller object (the payload) could have been seen in the glow. Bill Smith
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Kenorri
Object
I'm thinking that this thing was either a large piece of space junk or a re-entry vehicle of some kind that skimmed off the atmosphere and did not have the trajectory or momentum to enter completely. It starts out faintly and gets brighter and fuller untill it frisbees out again and disappears. Someone should see what Mr. Rutan and company are up to also, maybe a late night ride for a high-paying customer. For what it's worth, Kenorri
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Hawaiian Starman
Re: That flying thing in the sky
With utmost certainty, it was not an airplane. As much as I'd like to think ET/UFO, more likely it was a science experiement, or as others have suggested an outgassing of fuel. Certainly was a great visual experience.Refugee wrote:
Because if not, the damned thing could be a 737 with its landing lights on.
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eburacum
I must congratulate Hawaiian Starman for his excellent observation;
not only have you almost certainly correctly identified this object as a fuel dump, but you were a methodical observer. Since the triangulation between the two sites seems to place this object at around a thousand miles above the Earth's surface, almost nothing else, man-made or natural, could fit the all the evidence.
It was a fuel dump from a rocket, well above Low Earth Orbit.
Well done!
not only have you almost certainly correctly identified this object as a fuel dump, but you were a methodical observer. Since the triangulation between the two sites seems to place this object at around a thousand miles above the Earth's surface, almost nothing else, man-made or natural, could fit the all the evidence.
It was a fuel dump from a rocket, well above Low Earth Orbit.
Well done!
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Flashman
Ok some pencil and paper caculations here.. not science.. but the time differences in photos vary ..3.86 sec 3.87 sec 4.96 sec and 3.97 sec...even with longer exposure the object seems to slow down.. normally a longer exposure would would make a slowing object seem the same as the one before.. so the object is slowing very fast ;or the angle is coming more into direct line towards or away from the camera, if the latter speed could be the same and not changing.
1. either the object is slowing
2. or it is turning
Without a range to target, its worthless to guess what the object is. but its either contolled speed wise or affected by external forces that can alter its speed such as wind currents ..solar wind..gravity..
Or its controlled direction wise.. again or affected by external stearing forces.
if in atmosphere I'd say ballon.. or plane depending on speed..distance.
if in near space. closer then moon..its a satellite.. less likely a meteor.
if in far space beyond mars.. wow WOW.. big WOW something in astroid belt maybe...hot from a impact.
1. either the object is slowing
2. or it is turning
Without a range to target, its worthless to guess what the object is. but its either contolled speed wise or affected by external forces that can alter its speed such as wind currents ..solar wind..gravity..
Or its controlled direction wise.. again or affected by external stearing forces.
if in atmosphere I'd say ballon.. or plane depending on speed..distance.
if in near space. closer then moon..its a satellite.. less likely a meteor.
if in far space beyond mars.. wow WOW.. big WOW something in astroid belt maybe...hot from a impact.
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Joe
I saw a blue streak over florida a couple years ago. It was around 4am and we were looking out over the Gulf at Fort Myers beach. It was extremly fast and made no sounds. The object went from north to south.Ted Stickles wrote:I saw a streak fly over Florida last night as well. The thing made ZERO noise and it was a wierd blue.....sor of like the blue lights you see at the airport. It went in a Northwesternly direction...any ideas what that might have been?
Joe
http://www.hostaway.net
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Astroguy
Calculations
You are forgetting the angular distortion of the fish eye lens.
Flashman wrote:Ok some pencil and paper caculations here.. not science.. but the time differences in photos vary ..3.86 sec 3.87 sec 4.96 sec and 3.97 sec...even with longer exposure the object seems to slow down.. normally a longer exposure would would make a slowing object seem the same as the one before.. so the object is slowing very fast ;or the angle is coming more into direct line towards or away from the camera, if the latter speed could be the same and not changing.
1. either the object is slowing
2. or it is turning
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dhaxton
Method for finding the classical Keplarian elements
Method for finding the classical Keplarian elements of the object:
1) Obtain the Lat. and Long. of all three camera sights.
2) Obtain the R.A. and Dec of the streaks, note the start time of each picture, duration of picture, and end time. Make a table of these values.
3) Convert the R.A and Dec values to Az-El coordinates for all pictures.
4) Using an early orbit prediction program (using angles only solution) extract the rough estimate of the classical Keplarian elements.
5) Now run the estimated Keplarian elements through a least squared differential correction program (using a angles only solution) to improve the original estimates. Hopefully it will converge.
6) It is now possible to compute the height, slant rage, velocity and lat/long of the object at each observation.
1) Obtain the Lat. and Long. of all three camera sights.
2) Obtain the R.A. and Dec of the streaks, note the start time of each picture, duration of picture, and end time. Make a table of these values.
3) Convert the R.A and Dec values to Az-El coordinates for all pictures.
4) Using an early orbit prediction program (using angles only solution) extract the rough estimate of the classical Keplarian elements.
5) Now run the estimated Keplarian elements through a least squared differential correction program (using a angles only solution) to improve the original estimates. Hopefully it will converge.
6) It is now possible to compute the height, slant rage, velocity and lat/long of the object at each observation.
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Guest
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JayTheOrc
You should all STILL have a sense of humor though...
Yes you are linked off drudge report, you are famous now!You should still have a sense of humor though.
If it was a rocket fuel dump, or a fuel dump from a plane, it would be a non story, as we would know something was flying in that area at that time.
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Guest
Re: APOD Feb 8th 2005 Haleakala NSL animation
The apparent slowing down of the object may be due to perspective. Consider that the object is of a different length in each frame: shorter, then longer, then shorter again. The length is a function of the camera's shutter speed. It should be possible to calculate or graphically represent the object's angular length as a function of its distance from the horizon, and as a function of time.
Furthermore, you can do the same for the HK photos, thereby obtaining an estimate of parallax.
Assuming a satellite speed (~17K MPH) or an asteroid speed (~30K MPH), you could then determine the likelyhood of our visitor's identity.
Nelson A. Thompson
software project manager
Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX, USA
Furthermore, you can do the same for the HK photos, thereby obtaining an estimate of parallax.
Assuming a satellite speed (~17K MPH) or an asteroid speed (~30K MPH), you could then determine the likelyhood of our visitor's identity.
Nelson A. Thompson
software project manager
Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX, USA
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LReese
Alien Life and This Object
First off, I must say PLEASE GET A MODERATOR HERE. Otherwise, relevant posters will cease trying to work through the chaff to get to the wheat.
Secondly, I'd like to address the UFO crowd: don't jump to conclusions, just because we believe this was an Atlas fuel dump does not mean we don't think that life, even inteligent life exists elsewhere in the universe. What it means is that we take the most likely explanation first. If I take an umbrella with me on the days it rains, it's possible to conclude that it rains because I take the umbrella with me - but this isn't the most likely reasoning. So, which do you think is more likely? Bigfoot and the Close Encounters crew tooling slowly across the sky in uncontrolled flight, or a fuel dump from a confirmed launch that visually conforms to previous fuel dumps?
I don't see thinking this is a fuel dump as equal to not believing life is possible elsewhere. But this is just my opinion.
LR
Secondly, I'd like to address the UFO crowd: don't jump to conclusions, just because we believe this was an Atlas fuel dump does not mean we don't think that life, even inteligent life exists elsewhere in the universe. What it means is that we take the most likely explanation first. If I take an umbrella with me on the days it rains, it's possible to conclude that it rains because I take the umbrella with me - but this isn't the most likely reasoning. So, which do you think is more likely? Bigfoot and the Close Encounters crew tooling slowly across the sky in uncontrolled flight, or a fuel dump from a confirmed launch that visually conforms to previous fuel dumps?
I don't see thinking this is a fuel dump as equal to not believing life is possible elsewhere. But this is just my opinion.
LR
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RickM
Slower, or curving away..but not larger
I wondered how long it would be before somebody noticed that it slowed down! It didn't necessarily get closer or bigger - that could be an artifact of overexposure (look at Jupiter) - but its apparent motion certainly diminishes as time progresses.
In the 14:19 frame, the trail is shorter than in the next, but no wider or brighter. Thus either the object was slower and dimmer, or (more likely, I'd think) it first appeared in the middle of that exposure, say around 14:20.
Did HL shut down after the 14:35 frame? If not, did the object continue to the horizon or simply disappear?
Could it be a meteor that either slowed as it came in, or skipped off the upper atmosphere and headed away from Earth, still glowing? Is there a straight-line trajectory that could explain the apparent motion?
Or could it be that the Little Green Men, seeing that the planet was inhabited, made a U turn and headed back from whence they came?
Oh, and the plural of Asterix would have to be Asterices, wouldn't it?
In the 14:19 frame, the trail is shorter than in the next, but no wider or brighter. Thus either the object was slower and dimmer, or (more likely, I'd think) it first appeared in the middle of that exposure, say around 14:20.
Did HL shut down after the 14:35 frame? If not, did the object continue to the horizon or simply disappear?
Could it be a meteor that either slowed as it came in, or skipped off the upper atmosphere and headed away from Earth, still glowing? Is there a straight-line trajectory that could explain the apparent motion?
Or could it be that the Little Green Men, seeing that the planet was inhabited, made a U turn and headed back from whence they came?
Oh, and the plural of Asterix would have to be Asterices, wouldn't it?
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Physics Buff
You've been Posted on The Drudge Report
This event was posted at the top of The Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com/) this morning. There was a link to this forum from a Web page at NASA Goddard (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050208.html). This is why you are getting all the 'colorful' posts here today. It is a pity that the extra noise detracts from the subject at hand. I found it quite irritating to sort through the UFO-conspiracy-uneducated-insane-theory rubbish. On the other hand, I do appreciate that this is an open forum.
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Observer
Wouldn't be Liquid
It wouldn't be liquid, but a large cloud of vapor, much like the eyewitness account.JustAGuess wrote:A liquid wouldn't have the reflectivity seen in these images, although from the timing it does seem likely the object is something from the AMC-16's launching vehicle. Separation was due to occur 1:48:42 after launch.
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Smitty
A series of images from HL and MK on 2004 December 17
Whatever it is, the object appears to be getting shorter as it moves across the sky. Was it possibly moving past and away from us?
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Gas
Maritan
When gas is expelled from an A-16 there is a chemical change in the vapor and the way it reacts to the cold upper atmosphere that produces a bright "glowing" type effect. This seems consistent with the eye witness accounts and the weather patterns apparent over the islands that night.
And for you bloggers, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and gosh darnit, people like me."
.....name that quote. Boo-ya-ca-sho-din.
And for you bloggers, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and gosh darnit, people like me."
.....name that quote. Boo-ya-ca-sho-din.
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Observer
Re: minor geography correction
Oops - dude, you need to look at a map - or a picture:bschoonm wrote:I'd just like to point out that, contrary to the APOD text, Haleakala and Mauna Kea are both on the same island - the Big Island, Hawai'i.
http://cruises.about.com/library/pictur ... maui23.htm