APOD: The Antikythera Mechanism (2021 Mar 21)

[RocketRon]

Wasn't it said that the folks who built Stonehenge knew more about astronomy (and transporting large stones)
than the subsequent 5000 years of folks who came after.
Cue 'Renaissance' music.

When you look at Britain in the 'Dark Ages' post the Roman retreat, there is not much evidence of
advanced knowledge of medicine or astronomy or building in stone - or anything much at all really.
Now absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, BUT the fact that the arts and sciences
and medicine and mathematics was flourishing in Persia and India and China, and seemingly not in Britain is
highly suggestive !

And the whole of Western Europe underwent a 'Renaissance' in these disciplines throughout the 2nd Millenium. ?
You could perhaps argue the knowledge remained in pockets, and spread back out into the communities again,
but without being there that might be a tough sell.

We might also consider the astronomy park in Jaipur.
More trinkets on display in one spot circa early 18thC than the whole astronomy community in Europe could muster ?
https://www.transindiatravels.com/wp-co ... antar1.jpg
Heck, the Church fought tooth and nail that the sun revolved around the earth for some wee while ..

[Chris Peterson]

Wasn't it said that the folks who built Stonehenge knew more about astronomy (and transporting large stones)
than the subsequent 5000 years of folks who came after.
Cue 'Renaissance' music.

When you look at Britain in the 'Dark Ages' post the Roman retreat, there is not much evidence of
advanced knowledge of medicine or astronomy or building in stone - or anything much at all really.
Now absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, BUT the fact that the arts and sciences
and medicine and mathematics was flourishing in Persia and India and China, and seemingly not in Britain is
highly suggestive !

And the whole of Western Europe underwent a 'Renaissance' in these disciplines throughout the 2nd Millenium. ?
You could perhaps argue the knowledge remained in pockets, and spread back out into the communities again,
but without being there that might be a tough sell.

We might also consider the astronomy park in Jaipur.
More trinkets on display in one spot circa early 18thC than the whole astronomy community in Europe could muster ?
https://www.transindiatravels.com/wp-co ... antar1.jpg
Heck, the Church fought tooth and nail that the sun revolved around the earth for some wee while ..

The people who built Stonehenge certainly knew very little of astronomy. They had identified a few seasonal patterns. We see that in cultures all over the world, both earlier and later. (The instruments we see in Jaipur and the other Indian sites were similar to instruments in use in Europe all through the "Dark Ages".)

Again, what we see in Europe is a slowing of academic research. Not a loss of knowledge.

[neufer]

What actual scientific knowledge or knowledge about the natural world was lost? Had to be "re-imported"? I can't think of much. Records were lost. Scientific knowledge? Not really.

Scientific American
Volume 258, Number 4, April 1, 1988

Ancient Rope-and-Pulley Computer is
Unearthed in the Jungle of Apraphul.

You are jumping the gun, April Fools is tomorrow ...

O.K., it took ALL the computer power of my Rope-and-Pulley laptop... but here it is.

(If it weren't for the scientific knowledge lost due to the decline of Apraphul civilization
Rope-and-Pulley super computers would have the capacity to forecast Jungle weather today )

<<Tropical rain forests have a type of tropical climate in which there is no dry season—all months have an average precipitation value of at least 60 mm. There are no distinct wet or dry seasons as rainfall is high throughout the months. One day in a tropical rainforest climate can be very similar to the next.>>

[RocketRon]

That observatory in Jaipur India has more astronomy in one place
than you can find in the whole of Europe at that time. !!!

Read the literature ...

[RocketRon]

I don't know why it is so difficult to post into this thread ??
Its 'timed out' soooo many times ...

______________________________________________________

Again, what we see in Europe is a slowing of academic research. Not a loss of knowledge.

History would disagree with you ?

Building in stone, and engineering, in Britain largely disappeared with the retreat of the Romans.
Name a single notable example of engineering thereafter. ?
Until the arrival of the Normans...

And apart from a few small reservoirs of knowledge held in the monasteries, so largely did science,
medicine, mathematics and even civilisation itself.
Until that Renaissance, which imported Arabic and Indian ideas in bulk.
And re-established 'science' and the 'Age of Discovery' back into Europe ...

[Chris Peterson]

That observatory in Jaipur India has more astronomy in one place
than you can find in the whole of Europe at that time. !!!

The Jantar Mantar in Jaipur, and those in other Indian cities, were built by Jai Singh in the 1730s. They were used to compile tables of geocentric star tables- something that was done all over the world since ancient times. Primarily for astrological purposes. All of the instruments were of types known since Babylonian times, and all were in use in Europe throughout the "dark ages".

More to the point here, perhaps, is that these simple Indian instruments were first used long after Copernicus, Kepler, Newton and other Europeans laid the foundations of modern positional astronomy.

[Chris Peterson]

Again, what we see in Europe is a slowing of academic research. Not a loss of knowledge.

History would disagree with you ?

Building in stone, and engineering, in Britain largely disappeared with the retreat of the Romans.
Name a single notable example of engineering thereafter. ?
Until the arrival of the Normans...

And apart from a few small reservoirs of knowledge held in the monasteries, so largely did science,
medicine, mathematics and even civilisation itself.
Until that Renaissance, which imported Arabic and Indian ideas in bulk.
And re-established 'science' and the 'Age of Discovery' back into Europe ...

Building in stone never ceased. The knowledge of how to build in stone never ceased.

Again, what scientific knowledge do you think was lost?

[neufer]

Tower of Babel Story / G. DAGLI ORTI / Getty Images

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Amazon's planned east coast headquarters in Arlington, Virginia

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Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Building in stone, and engineering, in Britain largely disappeared with the retreat of the Romans. Name a single notable example of engineering thereafter. ? Until the arrival of the Normans...

And apart from a few small reservoirs of knowledge held in the monasteries, so largely did science, medicine, mathematics and even civilisation itself. Until that Renaissance, which imported Arabic and Indian ideas in bulk. And re-established 'science' and the 'Age of Discovery' back into Europe ...

Building in stone never ceased.

The knowledge of how to build in stone never ceased.

[RocketRon]

Indeed, I would have thought the Tower of Babylon might have been somewhere near Babylon !

Name a single notable building in stone in Britain after the Romans left ?
Or road, bridge or aquaduct for that matter.
(A few religious orders brought some masons from France etc to build a few stray early monasteries.).
Until the Normans arrived, and precipitated a building frenzy of cathedrals and castles. In stone.

You keep saying the rate of progress slowed.
Isn't that a euphemism for that Britain became a cultural backwater ?

"Technology and science in England advanced considerably during the Middle Ages, driven in part by the Greek and
Islamic thinking that reached England from the 12th century onwards. Many advances were made in scientific ideas,
including the introduction of Arabic numerals and a sequence of improvements in the units used for measuring time."

[RocketRon]

Name a single notable building in stone in Britain after the Romans left ?

More than that, name a single surviving complete Roman building anywhere in Britain. ?

The Brits were quite skilled at tearing them down.
Exceedingly so ....

[Chris Peterson]

Indeed, I would have thought the Tower of Babylon might have been somewhere near Babylon !

Name a single notable building in stone in Britain after the Romans left ?
Or road, bridge or aquaduct for that matter.
(A few religious orders brought some masons from France etc to build a few stray early monasteries.).
Until the Normans arrived, and precipitated a building frenzy of cathedrals and castles. In stone.

You keep saying the rate of progress slowed.
Isn't that a euphemism for that Britain became a cultural backwater ?

"Technology and science in England advanced considerably during the Middle Ages, driven in part by the Greek and
Islamic thinking that reached England from the 12th century onwards. Many advances were made in scientific ideas,
including the introduction of Arabic numerals and a sequence of improvements in the units used for measuring time."

You are confusing a slowing (but far from stopping) of growth in knowledge from a loss of knowledge.

[RocketRon]

You are just confusing the issue. !
And giving us your version of history ...

Stone built buildings etc largely disappeared from the British landscape for approx 500 years.
Isn't that a loss of knowledge ??
Or maybe the locals just liked their timber built technology. !

Apart from a few religious efforts, where they brought their masons (and near most everything else) from France etc.
And often (always ?) used robbed out Roman materials.

[RocketRon]

And there is no history of astronomy in those years in Britain whatsoever ...
Medicine, engineering, mathematics time keeping etc etc etc all seem absent too ?
Unless you have a stash of such history/knowledge that you'd like to share ?

A few stray snippets remained in some of the monasteries.
But such were barely British, they were almost to a man imports.

[Chris Peterson]

And there is no history of astronomy in those years in Britain whatsoever ...
Medicine, engineering, mathematics time keeping etc etc etc all seem absent too ?
Unless you have a stash of such history/knowledge that you'd like to share ?

A few stray snippets remained in some of the monasteries.
But such were barely British, they were almost to a man imports.

You have a very distorted view of that time. You haven't identified any lost knowledge. The culture changed. Architecture changed. But educated people were involved with math, science, medicine. They were interacting with other educated people around the world. No knowledge was lost and then rediscovered or reinvented later.

[RocketRon]

You seen to be making up the history ???
Quote a few sources for your info on where all these skills survived. !!

Lets work through a few specifics then.

When the Romans left, building in stone about stopped in its tracks.
It maybe lingered on for a while, but the net result is about the same.
Where do you think all the masons who were cutting and installing stone went. ?
What happened to all the brick making skills. ? (the Romans loved their bricks too).
Name one British built building made from bricks - for the next 1000 years ??
All the specialists making mosaic tile floors ??
All the plasterers doing plastered and painted walls.
All the folks making and installing tiled roofs.
All the skills in making hypocaust heated floors and buildings

They sure didn't hang around in Britain.
There was none of that for the next 400 or 500 years. !
And even then the Normans didn't have much of that stuff,
they had cold drafty old castles.
Albeit with a few huge fireplaces in some rooms.

We could go on and on here.
Britain post-Roman era was quite a degraded agricultural society, if we can call it that,
given the mish mash of Angles Saxon Jutes and Viking raiders/'invaders'.
Who were limited to building huts in timber...

Thats not really skills and knowledge surviving, is it. ?

As soon as you see a mosaic floor, you KNOW the brits didn't do it... !
There is some debate about this, but the evidence sure is scanty....
And gets scantier as the centuries roll on post-Roman.
[imghttps://www.romanobritain.org/1-arc/arc_images/ ... mosaic.jpg[/img]

We diverge from the The Antikythera Mechanism.
Can you imagine if this had been discovered in Britain.
It would have turned history/archaeology on its veritable head. !!
Or maybe thats a serious NO

[Chris Peterson]

You seen to be making up the history ???
Quote a few sources for your info on where all these skills survived. !!

Lets work through a few specifics then.

When the Romans left, building in stone about stopped in its tracks.
It maybe lingered on for a while, but the net result is about the same.
Where do you think all the masons who were cutting and installing stone went. ?
What happened to all the brick making skills. ? (the Romans loved their bricks too).
Name one British built building made from bricks - for the next 1000 years ??
All the specialists making mosaic tile floors ??
All the plasterers doing plastered and painted walls.
All the folks making and installing tiled roofs.
All the skills in making hypocaust heated floors and buildings

They sure didn't hang around in Britain.
There was none of that for the next 400 or 500 years. !
And even then the Normans didn't have much of that stuff,
they had cold drafty old castles.
Albeit with a few huge fireplaces in some rooms.

We could go on and on here.
Britain post-Roman era was quite a degraded agricultural society, if we can call it that,
given the mish mash of Angles Saxon Jutes and Viking raiders/'invaders'.
Who were limited to building huts in timber...

Thats not really skills and knowledge surviving, is it. ?

As soon as you see a mosaic floor, you KNOW the brits didn't do it... !
There is some debate about this, but the evidence sure is scanty....
And gets scantier as the centuries roll on post-Roman.
[imghttps://www.romanobritain.org/1-arc/arc_images/ ... mosaic.jpg[/img]

We diverge from the The Antikythera Mechanism.
Can you imagine if this had been discovered in Britain.
It would have turned history/archaeology on its veritable head. !!
Or maybe thats a serious NO

Still haven't identified any lost knowledge. Just cultural changes. Libraries and universities still existed. Hundreds of civic buildings and cathedrals were started and finished, many considered architectural wonders of the world still. Scholars traveled to and from Asia, Africa, and the Muslim world.

[RocketRon]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story !!!!

[RocketRon]

It was of course the Normans - 1066 and all that - that reintroduced stone buildings back into Britain.
Bringing stonemasons and even stone in some cases with them from France.
There's yer 'world class buildings' in the making.

After the Romans had left in 410AD, the locals had largely discarded all the trappings of Roman civilization,
and returned to almost entirely building their houses and churches and monasteries and fortifications in timber.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/F5MPE0/anglo- ... F5MPE0.jpg

Bricks didn't make a comeback for a few more centuries yet.

'Cultural change' neatly disguises the fundamental steps (backwards) in technology, science, the arts and society.
Being a total shift in the goalposts ...

[Chris Peterson]

It was of course the Normans - 1066 and all that - that reintroduced stone buildings back into Britain.
Bringing stonemasons and even stone in some cases with them from France.
There's yer 'world class buildings' in the making.

After the Romans had left in 410AD, the locals had largely discarded all the trappings of Roman civilization,
and returned to almost entirely building their houses and churches and monasteries and fortifications in timber.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/F5MPE0/anglo- ... F5MPE0.jpg

Bricks didn't make a comeback for a few more centuries yet.

'Cultural change' neatly disguises the fundamental steps (backwards) in technology, science, the arts and society.
Being a total shift in the goalposts ...

You ought to take a trip to England and spend a few weeks visiting the dozens of large, sophisticated stone building that were built in the 500s, the 600s, the 700s... which never stopped being built.

No. Knowledge. Was. Lost.

[RocketRon]

Name one ? Just one even ?
The Saxons, Angles Jutes and Vikings all built in timber.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/F5MPE0/anglo- ... F5MPE0.jpg

I have been to England, and inspected many a building there.
There aren't any stone ones commenced for the 500s, 600s, 700s, 800s, 900s nor into the 1000s. !!!!!
They were pretty much all timber, and nothing much has survived.
A few (recently) rebuilt villages maybe.

UNTIL THE NORMANS ARRIVED, 1066 and all that.
THEN they started a massive building program in stone - cathedrals, castles, monasteries.
They brought the stonemasons AND THE STONE from France.

London was abandoned when the Romans left. And fell into ruin.
The Saxons built a timber town just to one side.
Which was burned and invaded, a few times.

The Tower of London was about the first stone building built in stone in Britain for approx 650 years.
Note that completion date, 1078.
A few short decades of building after William the Conqueror, 1066 and all that.
https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/ ... #gs.yfhhvk
They brought the stone from France even.

You really need to read up on your Dark Ages history.
If you quoted astronomy 'facts' like this, we'd be back in the dark ages !!!

[RocketRon]

Not only did the Saxons not build in stone, the 'British' have a fabulous record of dismantling
about every Roman building in Britain
ie. There is not a single surviving complete Roman building in Britain.

Now this is not uncommon throughout the remains of the Roman Empire, since building materials
were often hard to come by without a huge industrial effort like the Romans could muster,
but few other countries have such a thorough record of erasing everything down to ground level.

[Chris Peterson]

Not only did the Saxons not build in stone, the 'British' have a fabulous record of dismantling
about every Roman building in Britain
ie. There is not a single surviving complete Roman building in Britain.

Now this is not uncommon throughout the remains of the Roman Empire, since building materials
were often hard to come by without a huge industrial effort like the Romans could muster,
but few other countries have such a thorough record of erasing everything down to ground level.

You have one of the most distorted and false views of history I've ever encountered. Even the most cursory search will reveal dozens of complex stone buildings constructed in the British Isles during the "Dark Ages". Furthermore, this period of time is applied to all of Europe, not merely Britain. People and culture certainly moved back and forth across the Channel.

As noted previously, over that thousand years there were scholars, there was astronomy, there was architecture, there was interaction with cultures in the Middle East, in Africa, in Asia.

There was no lost knowledge.

[RocketRon]

This thread seems to go offline for replies for days and weeks ?

[RocketRon]

You've got one of the most rose-tinted glasses view of English history I've ever come across.
May I ask what propaganda book it came out of ? It seems to bear no relationship to reality or history.
Maybe you could quote some sources. !

S'funny, when I do those 'cursory searches' I get this -

"ANGLO SAXON ARCHITECTURE.
Anglo-Saxon architecture was a period in the history of architecture in England, and parts of Wales, from the mid-5th century until the Norman Conquest of 1066. Anglo-Saxon secular buildings in Britain were generally simple, constructed mainly using timber with thatch for roofing. No universally accepted example survives above ground. "

Reconstruction of the Anglo-Saxon royal palace at Cheddar around 1000 AD.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... heddar.jpg
No stone visible there ! And this was a ROYAL PALACE.

VIKING VILLAGE
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/ba/48 ... c5168c.jpg
No stone there either

So, NAME EVEN A SINGLE ANGLO SAXON 'world class' BUILDING like ye claim to exist ???

[Chris Peterson]

You've got one of the most rose-tinted glasses view of English history I've ever come across.
May I ask what propaganda book it came out of ? It seems to bear no relationship to reality or history.
Maybe you could quote some sources. !

S'funny, when I do those 'cursory searches' I get this -

"ANGLO SAXON ARCHITECTURE.
Anglo-Saxon architecture was a period in the history of architecture in England, and parts of Wales, from the mid-5th century until the Norman Conquest of 1066. Anglo-Saxon secular buildings in Britain were generally simple, constructed mainly using timber with thatch for roofing. No universally accepted example survives above ground. "

Reconstruction of the Anglo-Saxon royal palace at Cheddar around 1000 AD.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... heddar.jpg
No stone visible there ! And this was a ROYAL PALACE.

VIKING VILLAGE
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/ba/48 ... c5168c.jpg
No stone there either

So, NAME EVEN A SINGLE ANGLO SAXON 'world class' BUILDING like ye claim to exist ???

Of course it was mostly simple timber. Just like most construction in the U.S. today! That doesn't mean they didn't know how to build from stone. Many monasteries and churches were built from stone over the centuries before the Norman Conquest. In Britain, and all over Europe.