Origins of the UNIVERSE

Dr. Skeptic · Post by **Dr. Skeptic** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:52 am

Harry,

Without a hypothesis, you are not working with science. If I were to phrase one for you it would resemble:

The universe is infinitely old and all energy and matter are recycled as an on going event.

Is that close?

It is not you personally I'm attacking, it is the non science you are propagating.

Are you known to have a stubborn side?

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:23 pm

Hello Dr Skeptic

My wife read this

Without a hypothesis, you are not working with science. If I were to phrase one for you it would resemble:

The universe is infinitely old and all energy and matter are recycled as an on going event.

Is that close?

It is not you personally I'm attacking, it is the non science you are propagating.

Are you known to have a stubborn side?

She agrees with you

But! in a way so do I.

The universe is infinitely old and all energy and matter are recycled as an on going event.

You hit the nail on the head.

Now thats the attitude I like to see. Thats been productive.

As you know there are huge amounts of questions to be asked and answered.

Thats my stubborn side

Has my wife been on this, posting.

toejam · Post by **toejam** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:16 pm

linx wrote:Hi,
i think that is very special that all have the opportunity via the internet to discuss different viewpoints about the origin of the universe & other subjects
i cant help but think that the Creator of the Universe must be really pleased that He didnt create or include humans on a sort of committee as He developed the plans for the Universe, its amazing splendour or its order!
lets learn together with peaceful respect ... & be overpowered by the wonder of the beauty as are displayed in so many APOD's
Lin

OK Lin. But what imaginary "Creator" are you talking about? Another "Alien"? Or the Big Bang?
I submit this with entirely peaceful respect.

linx · Post by **linx** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:27 pm

Hi toejam,
thank you for your respectful question
i'm talking about Almighty God, & to me He isnt imaginery actually
i appreciate that others hold many other views
Linx

Dr. Skeptic · Post by **Dr. Skeptic** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:52 pm

One of Einstein's goals was to, in a way, connect God and science. If it appears that the latest scientific finding are approaching a form of spirituality (note for a wonderful debate), it may prove Einstein right again.

Dr. Skeptic · Post by **Dr. Skeptic** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:04 pm

harry wrote:Hello Dr Skeptic

My wife read this

Without a hypothesis, you are not working with science. If I were to phrase one for you it would resemble:

The universe is infinitely old and all energy and matter are recycled as an on going event.

Is that close?

It is not you personally I'm attacking, it is the non science you are propagating.

Are you known to have a stubborn side?

She agrees with you

But! in a way so do I.

The universe is infinitely old and all energy and matter are recycled as an on going event.
You hit the nail on the head.

Now thats the attitude I like to see. Thats been productive.

As you know there are huge amounts of questions to be asked and answered.

Thats my stubborn side

Has my wife been on this, posting.

"Hit the nail on the head" on what - being stubborn?

Don't get too comfortable Harry, I'm not agreeing in any way.

If your postulation states that the universe is infinitely old and capable of recycling itself, the next step is to show that the assumptions are feasible, do you agree?

We are debating as scientists now ... remember.

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:55 pm

Linx - Yesterday I posted a response to you but later I removed it because I didn't want to offend you or anyone else. However, I think you read it before I edited the post -am I correct

mybluecowboy · Post by **mybluecowboy** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:35 pm

I'm new to this whole thing, just wanting to learn, I've read this entire convo and I have a question, may seem to border on the ignorant, however can't stop it from being asked...

Is there any one formula, theory, hypothesis, or observation about the begining (or lack therof) of the universe that is unequivicably absolute?

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:12 pm

Well Cowboy,

My 2 cents worth is this: The only absolute thing about the beginning of everything is that there is no absolute known about the beginning.

Someone will always consider all but their viewpoint to be correct even without proof that it is so and with the majority believing otherwise. (There are still people out there that believe that the Earth is flat and man never set foot on the moon and will argue till the cows come home because they believe they are right.)

mybluecowboy · Post by **mybluecowboy** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:49 pm

However, people who believe that the earth is flat can be proven wrong by certain facts. Actuality does not change based on ones believing in the existance of them or against them. Truth remains regardless, the earth can be/has been proven to be round. If there is no absolute in the origins of the universe that is why this particular subject can be argued infinitely, provided such a thing exists. Or at least until some sound proof of one part of one theory is proven. All of this being the case, if one part of one theory is proven absolutely false this could also cause a change in what theory stands and what does not...is this correct?

dcmcp · Post by **dcmcp** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:00 am

mybluecowboy wrote:Is there any one formula, theory, hypothesis, or observation about the begining (or lack therof) of the universe that is unequivicably absolute?

(My emphasis)
That would be Faith or Religion. It is not astronomy, cosmology or Physics.

Dr. Skeptic · Post by **Dr. Skeptic** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:08 am

mybluecowboy wrote:I'm new to this whole thing, just wanting to learn, I've read this entire convo and I have a question, may seem to border on the ignorant, however can't stop it from being asked...

Is there any one formula, theory, hypothesis, or observation about the begining (or lack therof) of the universe that is unequivicably absolute?

There is no "Fact" that can be 100% proven true, but in science if results are consistent by repeated tests it can be assumed true. The same is true about negative results.

To answer the origin dilemma to a point of "proof", science would need to reproduce the beginning of the universe and be able to repeat the results.

Theories have been proven wrong (including Harry's, he just doesn't know it yet), two project in the news that will narrow down the possibilities in the near future are the new particle accelerator coming on line soon and the new radio telescope array in Chile also coming on line in the next two years.

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:20 am

BMAONE23 wrote:Well Cowboy,

My 2 cents worth is this: The only absolute thing about the beginning of everything is that there is no absolute known about the beginning.

Someone will always consider all but their viewpoint to be correct even without proof that it is so and with the majority believing otherwise. (There are still people out there that believe that the Earth is flat and man never set foot on the moon and will argue till the cows come home because they believe they are right.)

This doesn't have anything to do with everybody's argument; but does anyone know how the saying got started about [till the cows come home]?

Orin

dcmcp · Post by **dcmcp** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:21 am

Dr. Skeptic wrote:Theories have been proven wrong (including Harry's, he just doesn't know it yet)...

I've been trying to figure Harry out - and can't. He doesn't seem to have a religious agenda, so I'm inclined to think that he tries to understand the information presented using an intuitive or common sense approach. This necessarily (for most) rules out non Newtonian physics. (You do have to give him points for tenacity....) (Harry, pls don't take offense - this is an observation/opinion, not an attack.)

...two project in the news that will narrow down the possibilities in the near future are the new particle accelerator coming on line soon and the new radio telescope array in Chile also coming on line in the next two years.

That's interesting. I've been out of the loop for a (very) long time. Can you give me a search term for the new accelerator, pls? I'd like to dig up some info on it.

linx · Post by **linx** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:02 am

Hi Martin,
i'm sorry i havent answered you before but i've only just come across your message below:

Linx - Yesterday I posted a response to you but later I removed it because I didn't want to offend you or anyone else. However, I think you read it before I edited the post -am I correct

no i didnt read your earlier response, so no worries ..i cant always keep up with all of the conversations/debates as much as i would like to
i dont think i'd get offended if a question or reply is sincere & polite even if its something i would totally disagree with
Linx

linx · Post by **linx** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:10 am

Hi Dr Skeptic,

One of Einstein's goals was to, in a way, connect God and science. If it appears that the latest scientific finding are approaching a form of spirituality (note for a wonderful debate), it may prove Einstein right again.

can you explain more about 'the latest scientific finding' you mention please, or where i may read about this ..its sounds very interesting, as would a debate upon the subject

thanks
Linx

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:19 am

Hello Dr Skeptic

Yes my wife ,knows that i'm stubborn.

But! I agree with you, do not get comftable.

========================================

Smile,,,,,,,,,,for those who have come onboard. I do not get offended.

Stay cool.

As for Mr Skeptics ideas , well we shall see

If your postulation states that the universe is infinitely old and capable of recycling itself, the next step is to show that the assumptions are feasible, do you agree?

Absolutely, 100%

In time we shall see who is right or wrong.

So lets begin.
===========================================

Hello Dcmcp

Smile,,,,,its OK

=========================================

Now can we focus on the topic.

Dr. Skeptic · Post by **Dr. Skeptic** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:19 pm

This doesn't have anything to do with everybody's argument; but does anyone know how the saying got started about [till the cows come home]?

It is the end of a farmers day, the cows return from grazing ready to bed for the night - the last job.

mybluecowboy · Post by **mybluecowboy** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:30 pm

orin stepanek wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote:Well Cowboy,

My 2 cents worth is this: The only absolute thing about the beginning of everything is that there is no absolute known about the beginning.

Someone will always consider all but their viewpoint to be correct even without proof that it is so and with the majority believing otherwise. (There are still people out there that believe that the Earth is flat and man never set foot on the moon and will argue till the cows come home because they believe they are right.)
This doesn't have anything to do with everybody's argument; but does anyone know how the saying got started about [till the cows come home]?
Orin

Just an answer to your aside, the cows always come home late or in the winter if they are out to pasture, so the term refering to something taking a very long time orignated with the cows taking a long time to come home.

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:49 pm

Well here it is (???)
Till the cows come home

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/382900.html

mybluecowboy · Post by **mybluecowboy** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:10 pm

please forgive my ignorance, but just to be certain that I have this correct, there is no absolute as far as the origins of the universe, only suposition and speculation, ( with some theory almost proven by duplication multiple times) these are mostly educated postulations which being that the orgin of all things can not be duplicated has a low rate of provability. However, with the new technology in the near future we may be able to hear and or see the begining, thus making replication unneeded.

If this is the case, I need to do more research and read more to discover which, if any, theory I believe is true. Forgive this too, if you will, but given this information

, it seems as though it takes equal amounts of faith to believe in a theory as it does to believe in the religion people keep refering to, very interesting. Thank you for helping me understand.

Dr. Skeptic · Post by **Dr. Skeptic** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:42 pm

Quote:
If your postulation states that the universe is infinitely old and capable of recycling itself, the next step is to show that the assumptions are feasible, do you agree?

Absolutely, 100%

In time we shall see who is right or wrong.

So lets begin.

Harry what is your opinion on quantum mechanics?

Do electrons instantaneously move from state to state?

Does the change of an electrons position/charge in an atom predictably emit a photon of a defined wave length?

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:21 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:Well here it is (???)
Till the cows come home

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/382900.html

Thanks everyone! Now I know. Kind of like 'Once in a Blue Moon"

Orin

BMAONE23 · Post by **BMAONE23** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:26 pm

that one is also on the list

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:32 am

Hello All

Thank you orin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,darn I was looking for that link.

=====================================

Hello Dr Skeptic.............. just got home,,,,,,,,,,,,,have to run,,,,,,,,,,will come back to the topic another day.

Starship Asterisk*

Origins of the UNIVERSE

Re: Origins of the Universe

Origins of the Universe

Origins of the Universe

Origins of the Universe