[old] APOD: Mars at Closest Approach 2016 (2016 Aug 09)

[stephenramsden]

Anyone interested; I neither exposed this fraud nor the last obvious fraud from Julian Wessel. I was notified in both cases by Christopher Go, Damian Peach and about 20 other experienced imagers to post this because they knew I had tens of thousands of social media followers and could get the word out.


I have edited most of this post out as I am not interested in getting into any juvenile arguments here. I do not appreciate the attacks on my character from some.

[astrokraai]

Alex; unfortunately that raw data simply does not exist. I have looked at three of his images on that Spanish forum, and every single one had a faked - sometimes even poorly faked - Hubble-infused representation of Mars on it.

I'll give away the source code for AutoStakkert! if he hasn't been faking his images (which you have to trust me is rather valuable to me ).

Emil

p.s. it is important that (at least planetary?) astrophotography is kept more science than art. Planetary images - not only by well-known astro-imagers* - are often used by scientists for their studies. You don't just screw yourself if you fake data, and it should quite simply never be tolerated (and perhaps especially not on a platform like this).

* you know, those in their castle that don't fake their data...

[geckzilla]

Stephen, you have some good points to make, and I can tell you have a history with Gendler, but please keep the personal bits between yourself and him. I would ask Robert to do the same. I appreciate the input both of you and the rest of the community have to make on the matter at hand as well as any criticism you may have for APOD itself. We all have our own areas of expertise, and I think maybe it is taken for granted among seasoned astro imagers how much more naturally it comes to spotting fakes because you're immersed in data and the whole process. Bear with the rest of us, including the APOD editors, who may not do planetary imaging or even own a telescope.

[stephenramsden]

I have no history with whoever Robert Gendler is except blocking him from my social media accounts. I have edited my post and apologize for referencing him in my post.

[owlice]

From Stephan Ramsden........"Chris Peterson,with all due respect to your prestigious and well earned academic position, you have "won" APODs in the past and are of course completely satisfied with the system as is."

You don't win APODs. You are featured APOD which substantially is a pretty different story

This. Thank you, colombari.

stephenramsden, APOD is not a competition nor an astrophotography "recognition" site. NASA classifies it as EPO: education and public outreach. The editors select images they think are best for that outreach education, images they want to explain to people, to use to illustrate something, or that have something they want to show to their audience. Or as Chris Peterson put so well, "It's a forum for astronomy, presented through images."

I couldn't care less than what is posted on APOD as it's basically the same group of 30 or so imagers submitting their daily work to these two poor saps to select from and they can never please everyone.

Submissions come from many people, not "the same group of 30 of so imagers", and images selected for APOD come from many sources, not just submissions. It is true that the APOD editors can't please everyone all the time, but then, that is true for everyone everywhere; you have certainly not pleased me in referring to the APOD editors as "poor saps".

[Elias Chasiotis]

I feel sad of the personal attacks and insulting words that are written and i think the moderators should do something about this. I have never seen it happening before in this forum.

[Mario]

Alex; unfortunately that raw data simply does not exist. I have looked at three of his images on that Spanish forum, and every single one had a faked - sometimes even poorly faked - Hubble-infused representation of Mars on it.

I'll give away the source code for AutoStakkert! if he hasn't been faking his images (which you have to trust me is rather valuable to me ).

Emil

p.s. it is important that (at least planetary?) astrophotography is kept more science than art. Planetary images - not only by well-known astro-imagers* - are often used by scientists for their studies. You don't just screw yourself if you fake data, and it should quite simply never be tolerated (and perhaps especially not on a platform like this).

* you know, those in their castle that don't fake their data...

Dear Emil,

As far as I know, yesterday night Jesús send you an email defending himself and rebating your arguments, curiously in this forum they only appear your arguments, others one mysteriously disappear.

So I ask you if you have any honor to publish here Jesús message. He explained you how he did the Mars maps with a couple of original videos.
Why don´t you publish that?

For all the rest, before any firewall will act, Jesús is going to send the a part of the original video.

And the bottomline, here some of you have not allowed Jesús to defend himself, this has become an inquisitorial act against a person whose right to defend himself has been removed.

Best Regards.

[geckzilla]

As far as I know, yesterday night Jesús send you an email defending himself and rebating your arguments, curiously in this forum they only appear your arguments, others one mysteriously disappear.

What are you referring to? So far, Jesús has not made a post here on his own. He signed up yesterday, I think, and had trouble confirming his account because he didn't get an email. I activated his account manually and posted a message relayed to me via email for him until he could get his user login sorted out. He's welcome to post here, and we have been waiting patiently for his response. Nothing has been deleted. He simply has not yet posted anything.

[Mario]

As far as I know, yesterday night Jesús send you an email defending himself and rebating your arguments, curiously in this forum they only appear your arguments, others one mysteriously disappear.

What are you referring to? So far, Jesús has not made a post here on his own. He signed up yesterday, I think, and had trouble confirming his account because he didn't get an email. I activated his account manually and posted a message relayed to me via email for him until he could get his user login sorted out. He's welcome to post here, and we have been waiting patiently for his response. Nothing has been deleted. He simply has not yet posted anything.

Dear Geckzilla,

One of the emails, was sent here and the other one directly to Emil. Maybe a server problem?
I also wait with impatience Jesus's answer.

BR.
Mario.

[geckzilla]

Maybe a server problem?

Sometimes emails get blocked for various reasons, so it's possible. Whatever the case, his account is activated so he can post here even if his activation email never makes it to him.

[astrokraai]

>So I ask you if you have any honor to publish here Jesús message. He explained you how he did the Mars maps with a couple of original videos.Why don´t you publish that?

Along the opposition I have used to form images and then maps the cylindrical rotations,telescopes C-14 (356mm)and newton 12 "(305mm),cameras ASI224mc / ASI290mm and filters UV / IR-cut, 610nm (224mc), R, G, B, A82,685nm (290mm) .
Maps of March and April are different, made with previous images of those meses. Para May and June if I used the same image map of these two months.

I hadn't included it because it makes zero sense compared to all the evidence I have posted here. Why don't you look at that evidence instead of being not critical at all? I have zeroto gain with trying to make him look like a fraud, and a lot to loose if I were wrong. So he knows my email address and has used it before. This is the only message he sent me.

So again, look at the evidence I posted, do you own digging if you don't trust me. Compare with existing images taken at the same time. Not just this APOD submission was upgraded with data that was not taken by him, there are more cases of his still-image submissions to that forum that have been upgraded with Hubble data.

I can make example after example, but if you decide not to look at them... What is the point (hint, that is a link showing a Mars map made by Hubble in 2007 compared to the one by Jesús, which he clearly used for inspiration, even though non of the actual Mars images this apparition show Mars like this) .

There are no original videos showing Mars as he is depicting them in his May and June images. He may of course try to show these videos that don't exist as evidence, but he has made literally zero attempt to actually do that.

( more evidence 1 - Hubble polar region data merged in 2014 data by Jesús, 2 - a messed up fake with same Hubble data on another 2014 image by Jesús, and 3 - blinking gif to show the bad photoshopping more clearly. He has done it before. )

[dpeach78]

Hi Emil (and all,)

I was not aware of these 2014 images Emil has uncovered but for me this puts it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Those images are without question using Hubble data from 1999.

If we look at the evidence here it is becoming overwhelming that these images and video are simply not real work produced from an amateur size telescope.

1. The resolution in all of these images including the video are far beyond what can be achieved by leaders in the field using larger apertures at better locations with far more experience, and certain sections display an incredible similarity to HST data (the area north of Syrtis Major for example.)

2. The clouds depicted in the March and April section of the video are totally false (Hellas was cloudy in March/April and the north polar hood clouds were completely absent) yet the opposite is true in both cases in the video which is totally contrary to all of the real images produced around this time.

3. Further evidence has been uncovered by Emil of more fake images produced of Mars in 2014 by the same author using HST data from 1999.

It was I who originally contacted Stephen Ramsden about this after discussions with a few other experienced Mars observers. People need to be made more aware that this is becoming an increasing problem, particularly in the field of planetary imaging where there have been quite a few instances over the past couple of years of people faking images or stealing others work etc. It is a total slap in the face to every imager that had dedicated in some cases thousands of hours of time to getting the best real images they can. Incidents like this also serve to undermine the pro/am relationship that exists in the planetary imaging community.

APOD as one of the most viewed astronomical image web sites in the world and i feel it needs to be vigilant and aware this kind of thing is going on, more so than ever before. Of course it is easy to be caught out when you are not an experienced observer or are overloaded with submissions, but if there are any doubts over something perhaps Robert/Jerry shouldn't feel bad about asking for a second opinion from an experienced imager. It would certainly help to prevent a recurrence of incidents like this.

Damian

[astrometbcn]

much evidence........

as Spanish astrophotographer I feel ashamed of the whole thing.........

[alcarreño]

much evidence........

as Spanish astrophotographer I feel ashamed of the whole thing.........

I also, I do not understand this type of action is very regrettable

[owlice]

I've removed some posts from the thread, for being rude or piling on or out of place. If your post was one of them, I am happy to discuss the matter with you in IM.

Thank you.

[+34]

In the Spanish forum astronomo.org there is a photo with two images and exact times, so that comparisons can be made:
http://www.astronomo.org/foro/index.php ... ia;id=1555

Hello everyone.
This forum is not representative of the Spanish amateur astrophotography, but rather is a marginal forum in which its administrators and moderators delete or modify messages if users do not match your thinking or your friendship.

This is the Spanish web only where Jesus publishes his work, including the image that is discussed, therefore it is impossible that he can question any of them, if not for the impact it has taken this matter in all networks and forums.
I feel embarrassed by this situation, as I said, so it is not the Spanish amateur astrophotography.

Good heavens.

In Spanish:

Hola a todos.
Este foro no es representativo de la astrofotografia amateur Española, mas bien es un foro marginal en el que sus administradores y moderadores borran o modifican los mensajes de los usuarios si no coinciden con su pensamiento o su amistad.

Esta es en la unica web Española en la que Jesus publica sus trabajos, incluida la imagen sobre la que se discute, por lo tanto es imposible que se le pueda cuestionar nada de ellos, si no es por la repercusion que ha tomado este asunto en todas las redes y foros.
Siento vergüenza ajena por esta situacion, como he dicho, asi no es la astrofotografia amateur Española.

Buenos cielos.

[iagobado]

Hi to all,

I'm a friend of Jesus and member of astronomo.org forum, I must say two things, first, I like Astronomo.org, i started in astronomy in it, and I think it's a good forum, I don't know who or why it's attacking that forum here, that has no sense for me and it's totally offtopic here i think.

Second, I know Jesus just sent a e-mail with some info (including a dropbox public folder with a video), to Robert Nemirof, I think Robert is the guy that manage this forum, i'm sure he'll post it asap, anyway, you can see the info Jesus posted in our "marginal forum" in this thread, in the second page, hope you all could access the info, and check whatever you need.

http://www.astronomo.org/foro/index.php?topic=22214.30

[astrokraai]

Hi to all,
[..]Second, I know Jesus just sent a e-mail with some info (including a dropbox public folder with a video), to Robert Nemirof, I think Robert is the guy that manage this forum, i'm sure he'll post it asap, anyway, you can see the info Jesus posted in our "marginal forum" in this thread, in the second page, hope you all could access the info, and check whatever you need.

http://www.astronomo.org/foro/index.php?topic=22214.30

I downloaded the raw data (1200 frames, 10 seconds), processed his recording, and compared it to what he got out of the full recording. As expected, his processing is not at all comparable to what one can expect from the raw data. No matter how many minutes of data you add together, the resolving power of a telescope doesn't all of a sudden approach that of a 2.5 meter telescope in space. The evidence continues to be overwhelming.

And I'm done now by the way, have a good day all and enjoy the skies above.

[RJN]

What follows is the first of two of the latest email to me from Jesus. The second contains many still images that need to be uploaded but are not included here. Included below is a link to a video that I hope will better illuminate Jesus' process.

Please stay on topic. I have started deleting posts that have nothing to do with the specific video posted to APOD on 2016 August 9. Also, posts and parts of posts that are insulting will also be deleted. I commend geckzilla and Owlice for their continuing actions on this front.

****

Hola Robert.
Como ya me pasó en otra ocasión ,ayer no pude mandar el mesaje a Asterisk,y además pienso que fué a usted quien le mandé el trabajo y a quien tengo que explicarme.
Como dije,para todas las rotaciones,sólo he creado dos mapas compuestos por diferentes imágenes a lo largo de la oposición,por lo que es normal que algunas partes coincidan en dos rotaciones y en otras cambie la calidad,entre otras cosa porque en uno de ellos con Marte más cerca contaba con mejores tomas y de nota en parte de él.Ésto es porque en ningún caso he dicho que quisiera dar documento de un momento concreto como ocurre con una foto,yo mandé esto haciendo un documento resumen durante los meses de marzo,abril,mayo y junio(y así lo digo en el envìo del trabajo),en el que se viese las fases y cambio de tamaño mientras se acercaba a la tierra en esos meses,pensé que para ello era mejor una rotación.En cuanto a las afirmaciones del señor Peach con la falsedad de las nubes en esos meses,pues en los mapas,por lo que explico anteriormente,busqué la coincidencia de longitud y después tuve que fusionar las bandas nubosas y sí que se ven aumentadas,repito mi objetivo solo era divulgar el resumen de fases y tamaños durante la oposición 2016.Pero también digo que están más visibles gracias al uso del filtro azúl pálido(A82),idea que me dió él(dejo una foto suya de marzo con la explicación),que aunque no viene al caso,el señor Peach seguro que recuerda que el pasado 2015 seleccionó él una foto mía como la mejor de ese año en España y en Madrid me entregó el reconocimiento.Sólo decir que las imágenes son de mi propiedad y de mi mujer y en ningún caso como parece empeñado el señor Emil una copia del Hubble.
Le mando un pequeño trozo de un vídeo original para que conste desde Dropbox(1.200 fotogramas en 10 segundos),junto a una imagen apilada y procesada de esos mismos vídeos,las longitudes individuales por imágenes con las que he creado el primer mapa y ese primer mapa.
Además de los datos que dí en inicio añado,preprocesados con PIPP,autostakkert,winjupos en derrotacion de imágenes,Registax,fitswork,photoscape,winjupos para crear los vídeos y after effects(CS6)en la unión y mejora de ellos.
Espero que sea suficiente,porque no seguiré con ésto en algo que mandé por difundir lo que anteriormente dije sin más pretensiones,y que en ningún caso puedo aceptar se me difame de ésta manera.
APOD no es una competencia, ni un sitio de fotografía astronómica "reconocimiento". La NASA lo clasifica como EPO: educación y difusión pública. Los editores de seleccionar las imágenes que creen son los mejores para que la educación alcance, imágenes que desean explicar a la gente, a usar para ilustrar algo, o que tienen algo que quieren mostrar a su público. O como Chris Peterson puso tan bien, "Es un foro para la astronomía, presentado a través de imágenes."

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ppv0rffxtr3gc ... -.avi?dl=0

Es el enlace de los 10 segundos de vídeo,como me pedían de pruba que existen,y si no he contestado antes es porque en ésta época del año lo tengo muy complicado en el trabajo,aúnque muchos estén de vacaciones,y a las horas de madrugada que llego en tres dias por semana no es de agrado conectarse y espero a tener un espacio.

[JSG]

Mando los demás archivos también.
Si hay dos mapas de cada imagen,es para resaltar detalle en el segundo,de cara a facilitar unión después.Aunque están medidas todas,no todas las utilicé para el mapa(repito,éste es el primero,que creo es suficiente prueba).Otra es del señor Peach explicando lo del filtro azúl pálido,la siguiente es una de la imágenes procedente de los vídeos para después derrotar en conjunto con más y un log de la captura.
Un saludo.
No tengo inconveniente en que las comparta en el foro Asterisk.

[Bufot]

Hi, I'm Bufot.

This forum is not representative of the Spanish amateur astrophotography, but rather is a marginal forum in which its administrators and moderators delete or modify messages if users do not match your thinking or your friendship.

Astronomo.org is the most active astronomy forum in Spain, with more than twice the visits of the rest... far from being marginal.
With just one moderator (me), that should mean I have a lot of work... or maybe a lot of people match my thinking, and/or I have a lot of friends
In that case I have to agree and I'm happy with that!

I have to point that as a moderator, I can't and I should NOT check or analyze opinions nor the results of our members, nothing but their attitude. Jesús always share his photos, comments, opinions or knowledge in a nicely and humility manner.

Any matter about his own photos or his way of working is totally alien to our forum so I don't understand what has to do such comment here.

Said that, please JRN, I beg you...

[Elias Chasiotis]

The video looks like what would someone expect for the apperture and camera used and the low altitude of Mars, but the date written is June 18, 2016. The problem is that the details visible on the video are much less than those that appear on the APOD video. In my opinion, it is impossible to get such a high detail result after processing a similar quality video.

[Benoit Gagnon]

After taking a step back and looking at what both parties submitted , I can say without any hesitations that the points brought up forward by Damian Peach and Emil Kraaikamp are more than conclusive and unfortunately the video uploaded from Jesus Santos Garzas and his explanations are not conclusive at all for the simple reason that we now have the raw video ( and yes I did process it) and then the final picture but not what is in between the two or how he got there because there is an unexplainable and unrealistic gargantuan jump from the picture we get from the video to the final product .

Is this APOD video or animation aesthetically nice? Yes, it is. Do I think it has been spiced up or augmented with some Hubble data? Yes, I do. Do I think it is science and should be promoted as such? No for the same reason the work from Dr. Hwang Woo-suk is not science.

If you don’t know who is Dr. Hwang Woo-suk , here is a link : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Woo-suk

[geckzilla]

I am probably preaching to the choir, here, but using Hubble data in and of itself is not the problem. If Hubble data had been used, and if the creator was open and honest about it being a composite, and everyone knew what they were getting: A representative picture of Mars that is closer to illustration than it is to reality, it would be ok.

But that is not what happened here. I do not think that Jesus is being honest, and that is because facts have been presented that prove Mars did not look like his presented video on the given dates. All deconstructions of his processing aside, how are we to believe that Jesus's image represents Mars when other images taken nearly at the same time do not show the same weather?

Why does his map, at the end of his video, look so similar to this projection map published by ESA in 2007?
http://spacetelescope.org/images/opo0745g/

In particular, take a look at the cloud formation over Mare Acidalium. What are the chances that this same cloud just happened to appear in Jesus's data?

[avdhoeven]

I'm flabbergasted about the fact that the clouds didn't move in 9 years between 2007 and 2016. That's really shaking up all knowledge about the Martian atmosphere, isn't it?

See this animation where I put the map from the video over the 2007 Space Telescope surface map.