Planet's X and Y

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Planet's X and Y

Post by THX1138 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:22 am

Found this story on Yahoo tonight, Is this to be believed / how can this even be possible ? :shock:


Out past Pluto, in a galaxy not that far, far away (ours, in fact), may lie two planets larger than Earth. Astrophysicists studying “extreme trans-Neptunian objects” (ETNOs) now believe that a “Planet X” and a “Planet Y” are ripe for discovery, reports Space.com. If proven to be true, it will significantly alter what we currently believe about the solar system.

The research, published this week via two papers in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society Letters journal, was conducted by astronomers at the University of Cambridge and the Complutense University of Madrid. In calculating the orbits of 13 ETNOs around Pluto, whose unique gravitational pull influences orbits of objects beyond Neptune, the scientist came to believe the orbit patterns indicate that another force is also acting upon the ETNOs. Perhaps, they said, it could even be an “icy super-Earth” that is 10 times larger than our Blue Marble.

Carlos de la Fuente Marcos, an astrophysicist at the UCM and co-author of the study, said: "The exact number is uncertain, given that the data that we have is limited, but our calculations suggest that there are at least two planets, and probably more, within the confines of our solar system.”

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:29 pm

THX1138 wrote:how can this even be possible ? :shock:
Why are you surprised by this? Finding more planets out past Pluto is to be expected, I would think.
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by bystander » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:35 pm

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by THX1138 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:07 am

Because for one, they are talking about something larger than earth / something that big would have to block out background stars and so would have been noticed............No ??
And then #2 if they are ( icy-super earths ) I would think that they would reflect all kinds of sunlight. No ???
Unless i guess if they are dirty black icy-super earths.
Makes sense to me but please keep in mind that i am just a simple cabinet maker by trade

BTW that PhysOrg website is pretty neat, cool topics to say the least

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by geckzilla » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:57 am

I could eat my words on this if they discover one someday but it seems like a lot of chasing wishes to me. Larger planets thought to be there can't be there after infrared studies? Well, then they must be smaller! The planet parameters start to fit in the smaller and smaller holes allowed by the current data. As long as there exists a hole, even if it's a really, really small one, then Planet X (and Y?) will continue to fit in however they can.

Edit: The authors themselves are skeptical of their own results so perhaps I am being too harsh. Their sample size could increase and the whole thing could go out with a whimper. Either that or it could increase the pressure to find them. Could be fun.
Despite their surprising results, the authors recognise that their data comes up against two problems. On the one hand, their proposal goes against the predictions of current models on the formation of the solar system, which state that there are no other planets moving in circular orbits beyond Neptune.

However, the recent discovery by the ALMA radio telescope of a planet-forming disk more than 100 astronomical units from the star HL Tauri, which is younger than the Sun and more massive, suggests that planets can form several hundred astronomical units away from the centre of the system.

On the other hand, the team recognises that the analysis is based on a sample with few objects (specifically 13), but they point out that in the coming months more results are going to be published, making the sample larger. "If it is confirmed, our results may be truly revolutionary for astronomy," says de la Fuente Marcos.
http://phys.org/news/2015-01-trans-nept ... r.html#jCp
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:23 am

THX1138 wrote:Because for one, they are talking about something larger than earth / something that big would have to block out background stars and so would have been noticed............No ??
No, not easily. An occultation would be rare and brief. That means easily missed.
And then #2 if they are ( icy-super earths ) I would think that they would reflect all kinds of sunlight. No ???
Unless i guess if they are dirty black icy-super earths.
Even if it was high albedo, something just a few Earth radii at that distance would be very hard to detect. And as you note, its surface could easily be space weathered to a low albedo.
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by THX1138 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:57 am

Thanks guys
@ Chris / Question / looking at a deep view of our milky way there are millions of stars in practically every direction so wouldn't a planet or even a moon be blocking out thousands of stars at any given time / When one is looking at those deep field views are closer objects in the foreground lost ?
@ geckzilla (I love that screen name) Yes this might just be fun at that
But then if say one or more planets are found obviously astronomers and etc are going to want to see them up close and who knows how long it will take us to get there...............This wait just for the Pluto images is killing me

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by geckzilla » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:21 am

I hope we send probes to study Uranus and Neptune before anyone gets the idea to send a probe on a 30 year trip to some far off KBOs. Remember though, after Pluto New Horizons will be pointed toward one of those small KBOs so the wait will begin all over again. If you are thirsting for pictures, why not follow Dawn? It's going to be taking pictures of Ceres in a matter of days instead of months. We will get our first good look at Ceres soon!
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by bystander » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:57 am

I would love to see Cassini class probes, with the latest upgrades in technology, sent to Uranus and Neptune, perhaps with probes to Oberon and Triton.
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by geckzilla » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:05 am

We don't even have one for Jupiter's moons until 2022. Jupiter Icy Moon Explorer may arrive in 2030 if it launches on schedule. Juno is going sooner but it's not going to be studying moons. It's got a camera that will break after being exposed to Jupiter's radiation for a short while, though.
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:59 am

THX1138 wrote:Thanks guys
@ Chris / Question / looking at a deep view of our milky way there are millions of stars in practically every direction so wouldn't a planet or even a moon be blocking out thousands of stars at any given time / When one is looking at those deep field views are closer objects in the foreground lost ?
The sky is still almost entirely empty of stars. Those pictures fool you, because diffraction makes the stars look much bigger than the actual angle they subtend. For all practical purposes they are point sources. And a planet in the Kuiper Belt isn't much bigger. Occultations will be rare, and only detected if we are looking in exactly the right place at the right time. Possible, but unlikely.
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by THX1138 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:51 am

Before i heard about this X and Y planets possibly being out there it seems like forever that one crackpot or another were always talking about some mysterious planet X with scientists always discounting the possibility............And now there might be Hmmmmm..
And @ geckzilla, this Ceres thing is awesome cool, wondering what the white spot is and I'm glad we will all find out very soon

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by BMAONE23 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:45 am

THX1138 wrote:Before i heard about this X and Y planets possibly being out there it seems like forever that one crackpot or another were always talking about some mysterious planet X with scientists always discounting the possibility............And now there might be Hmmmmm..
And @ geckzilla, this Ceres thing is awesome cool, wondering what the white spot is and I'm glad we will all find out very soon
I would say that the best explanation is that of cryovolcanism

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by geckzilla » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:32 am

BMAONE23 wrote:I would say that the best explanation is that of cryovolcanism
Really? It's probably just a fresh impact site. Cryovolcano is one of the most fun explanations, though.
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by THX1138 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:00 am

If it were a Cryovolcano wouldn't there be a visible plume coming off of the thing already
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:16 pm

THX1138 wrote:Before i heard about this X and Y planets possibly being out there it seems like forever that one crackpot or another were always talking about some mysterious planet X with scientists always discounting the possibility............And now there might be Hmmmmm..
Yeah, there have been plenty of crackpot stories about "planet X". But this latest news has nothing crackpot about it at all. They're seeking these possible new planets basically the same way all the outer planets were found, by noting the effects upon the orbits of already found distant objects. Remember, all objects in space exert attractive gravitational forces on each other.

Considering how vast the Keiper Belt and the Oort Cloud are, I'd bet (if I did that sort of thing) that not only will planets X and Y be found, but Z will be as well. For this non-wager I'd specify that for these newly discovered outer "planets" to count as such they must each have at least as much mass as our least massive "real" planet, Mercury.

If, and I believe when, planet Z is discovered it should be called ice planet Zero.

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by THX1138 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:29 am

Even if its found to be a gas or all rock planet?
Spent a few minutes searching for information regarding planet x, for the most part people believed it was either orbiting the sun in the same place as the earth but on the opposite side of the sun so thats why we could never see it, that or it orbits the sun every 10,000 years coming as close as the earth is to the sun on its nearest approach. I don't know why i've bothered to state that as I'm sure that everyone else here already knew that, except for me

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by geckzilla » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:55 am

That particular crackpot theory usually calls the planet Nibiru. It's am amusing sci-fi story but some people actually take it seriously.
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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:06 pm

THX1138 wrote:Even if its found to be a gas or all rock planet?
These X, Y, and Z possible planets aren't likely to be rocky, especially on their surfaces. The further one moves outward from the Sun the colder it gets, so ices of many kinds would be the main planet forming raw material.
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by THX1138 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:31 am

@ BDanielMayfield
I like the name Ice Planet Zero, for some reason it seems less boring than all the rest
I've come to the conclusion that when i said i wanted to be somebody when i grew up i probably should have been more specific

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by BDanielMayfield » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:28 am

THX1138 wrote:@ BDanielMayfield
I like the name Ice Planet Zero, for some reason it seems less boring than all the rest
Hey thanks. Maybe it'ill catch on. This imagined, most distant planet would be so far from the Sun that "solar heating" would be next to nothing. And then it might have places where the Sun never shines like the bottoms of polar crators. Such a place could have the coldest, closest to absolute zero temperature of any place in our solar system this side of the Oort Cloud.
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

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Re: Planet's X and Y

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:45 pm

I failed earlier to follow bystanders and Margarita's link trail to an interesting astrobites article on planets X and Y:
MargaritaMc wrote:Today's astrobite by David Wilson, a PhD student at the University of Warwick, explores this research Are There Two Missing Planets In The Solar System?
I quote here the last three paragraphs of that astrobite:
The astronomers who discovered 2012 VP133 had suggested just that, hypothesizing that the orbits of both their new KBO and Sedna were being shaped by an undetected super-Earth (a planet roughly twice the size of our own). The authors of this paper go one step further: The orbits of the KBOs can be best explained by two super-Earths, one at around 200 au and another at roughly 250 au. They would be locked in a orbital resonance, where the inner planet goes round the Sun three times for every two orbits of the outer world. The gravitational interactions between these planets and the KBOs would force them onto the unusually similar orbits that the finders of 2012 VP133 had observed.

So are there undiscovered planets waiting for us to find them? This would be particularly exciting as there are no super-Earths that we know of in the Solar System, but they appear to be abundant around other stars. However, the authors note that their conclusions have one huge caveat: small number statistics.

The calculations suggesting the existence of unseen planets is based on observations of only 13 KBOs, few enough that the clustering could be down to simple chance. If future observations find many more KBOs that don’t fit the pattern, then the case for missing planets will disappear. If, on the other hand, they do match what has already been seen, then their behaviour could be used to narrow down the locations of the unseen super-Earths, giving future astronomers the information they need to find them. The authors finish by noting that, if these super-Earths are there, then the effects of their gravity could be detected by the New Horizons spacecraft, currently approaching Pluto for our first close look at a KBO.
So the theoretical basis for expecting to find planets X and Y seems quite sound, for now. Z would be very speculative, to say the least. But hey, it's a long way to the Oort cloud.

Bruce
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