APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
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APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01)

Post by APOD Robot » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:09 am

Image A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center

Explanation: Why are these people shooting a powerful laser into the center of our Galaxy? Fortunately, this is not meant to be the first step in a Galactic war. Rather, astronomers at the Very Large Telescope (VLT) site in Chile are trying to measure the distortions of Earth's ever changing atmosphere. Constant imaging of high-altitude atoms excited by the laser -- which appear like an artificial star -- allow astronomers to instantly measure atmospheric blurring. This information is fed back to a VLT telescope mirror which is then slightly deformed to minimize this blurring. In this case, a VLT was observing our Galaxy's center, and so Earth's atmospheric blurring in that direction was needed. As for inter-galaxy warfare, when viewed from our Galaxy's center, no casualties are expected. In fact, the light from this powerful laser would combine with light from our Sun to together appear only as bright as a faint and distant star.

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Guest » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:45 am

"...when viewed from our Galaxy's center ... the light from this powerful laser would combine with light from our Sun to together appear only as bright as a faint and distant star".
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Using that logic then, it would seem that when viewed from Earth, a faint and distant star could in theory, at least, be the light from a powerful ET laser combined with the light from ET's sun." No?

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by geckzilla » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:20 am

Sure. Any star at any time could contain alien laser light. I could win the lottery tomorrow and then promptly be struck by lightning and a meteor at the same time, I guess.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Ann » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:28 am

When I look at a picture like this one, I always try to identify at least some of the individual stars. At about 10 o'clock is a very bright and somewhat misshapen star. I was surprised to find that this is Vega, and even more surprised to see the surrounding constellation Lyra looks so huge in this picture. Constellation Aquila and its brightest star Altair look small and faint by comparison.

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by alter-ego » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:45 am

Guest wrote:"...when viewed from our Galaxy's center ... the light from this powerful laser would combine with light from our Sun to together appear only as bright as a faint and distant star".
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Using that logic then, it would seem that when viewed from Earth, a faint and distant star could in theory, at least, be the light from a powerful ET laser combined with the light from ET's sun." No?
In simple integrated intensity terms, this is correct. However, the spectral irradiance of the laser far exceeds that of the nearby parent star. In principle, an on-axis 100 Watt 532nm CW laser (1 GHz band width, ≈ 1 picometer) launched with a 14-meter mirror will show a spectral brightness ~20 times brighter than the Sun over that wavelength range. Now, the laser brightness will be lessened by extinction, but not enough to mask the enhancement if path between the sender and receiver is not a strong absorber or scatterer. The galactic center is not very accessible to visible wavelengths. Also, if the receiver does not have the spectral resolution or sensitivity, the detection would likely go unnoticed or not possible. Of course, this is all in principle regarding a Continuous Wave laser. Very high power, short-pulse lasers would be likely be observed differently. For these lasers, the detection scheme would entail looking for fast / momentary bright flashes in time, and not as much in spectral brightness.

Edit: My original calculation was for a direct laser - eye relationship which was wrong for the case here. The case described now is for launching a laser into space with a 14 meter diameter mirror. Both calculations were in my old file - I jumped to the wrong result at first :ssmile:
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by stephen63 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:51 pm

Guest wrote:"...when viewed from our Galaxy's center ... the light from this powerful laser would combine with light from our Sun to together appear only as bright as a faint and distant star".
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Using that logic then, it would seem that when viewed from Earth, a faint and distant star could in theory, at least, be the light from a powerful ET laser combined with the light from ET's sun." No?
Not as far fetched as you may think!
http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1004/20seti4/
Modest efforts to search for alien laser beams had been conducted by British amateur Stuart Kingsley, who was living in the United States at the time, but it was not until 19 October 1998 that the first major professional OSETI searches began in earnest at both the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, under the watchful eye of Paul Horowitz, and at Berkeley by Werthimer’s team. Today, there are several OSETI searches, including one at Lick Observatory, another at UC Berkeley’s Leuschner Observatory and an all-sky survey that has been developed by the Harvard team.

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Guest » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:17 pm

I don't know everything about lasers, so this question might be laughable. How are we avoiding shooting down our own space junk?

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by WWW » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:41 pm

Umm, wouldn't that be intra-galaxy warfare?

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by neufer » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:50 pm

stephen63 wrote:
Guest wrote:"...when viewed from our Galaxy's center ... the light from this powerful laser would combine with light from our Sun to together appear only as bright as a faint and distant star".
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Using that logic then, it would seem that when viewed from Earth, a faint and distant star could in theory, at least, be the light from a powerful ET laser combined with the light from ET's sun." No?
Not as far fetched as you may think!
http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1004/20seti4/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_for_extraterrestrial_intelligence#Optical_experiments wrote:
<<The search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) is the collective name for a number of activities undertaken to search for intelligent extraterrestrial life. SETI projects use scientific methods in this search. For example, electromagnetic radiation is monitored for signs of transmissions from civilizations on other worlds.

While most SETI sky searches have studied the radio spectrum, some SETI researchers have considered the possibility that alien civilizations might be using powerful lasers for interstellar communications at optical wavelengths. The idea was first suggested by R. N. Schwartz and Charles Hard Townes, one of the inventors of the laser, in a 1961 paper published in the journal Nature titled "Interstellar and Interplanetary Communication by Optical Masers". However, the 1971 Cyclops study discounted the possibility of optical SETI, reasoning that construction of a laser system that could outshine the bright central star of a remote star system would be too difficult. In 1983, Townes published a detailed study of the idea in the US journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, which was met with widespread agreement by the SETI community.

There are two problems with optical SETI. The first problem is that lasers are highly "monochromatic", that is, they emit light only on one frequency, making it troublesome to figure out what frequency to look for. However, according to the uncertainty principle, emitting light in narrow pulses results in a broad spectrum of emission; the spread in frequency becomes higher as the pulse width becomes narrower, making it easier to detect an emission.

The other problem is that while radio transmissions can be broadcast in all directions, lasers are highly directional. This means that a laser beam could be easily blocked by clouds of interstellar dust, and Earth would have to cross its direct line of fire by chance to receive it.

Optical SETI supporters have conducted paper studies of the effectiveness of using contemporary high-energy lasers and a ten-meter focus mirror as an interstellar beacon. The analysis shows that an infrared pulse from a laser, focused into a narrow beam by such a mirror, would appear thousands of times brighter than the Sun to a distant civilization in the beam's line of fire. The Cyclops study proved incorrect in suggesting a laser beam would be inherently hard to see.

Such a system could be made to automatically steer itself through a target list, sending a pulse to each target at a constant rate. This would allow targeting of all Sun-like stars within a distance of 100 light-years. The studies have also described an automatic laser pulse detector system with a low-cost, two-meter mirror made of carbon composite materials, focusing on an array of light detectors. This automatic detector system could perform sky surveys to detect laser flashes from civilizations attempting contact.

In the 1980s, two Soviet researchers conducted a short optical SETI search, but turned up nothing. During much of the 1990s, the optical SETI cause was kept alive through searches by Stuart Kingsley, a dedicated British researcher living in the US state of Ohio.

Several optical SETI experiments are now in progress. A Harvard-Smithsonian group that includes Paul Horowitz designed a laser detector and mounted it on Harvard's 155 centimeter (61 inch) optical telescope. This telescope is currently being used for a more conventional star survey, and the optical SETI survey is "piggybacking" on that effort. Between October 1998 and November 1999, the survey inspected about 2,500 stars. Nothing that resembled an intentional laser signal was detected, but efforts continue. The Harvard-Smithsonian group is now working with Princeton University to mount a similar detector system on Princeton's 91-centimeter (36-inch) telescope. The Harvard and Princeton telescopes will be "ganged" to track the same targets at the same time, with the intent being to detect the same signal in both locations as a means of reducing errors from detector noise.

The Harvard-Smithsonian group is now building a dedicated all-sky optical survey system along the lines of that described above, featuring a 1.8-meter (72-inch) telescope. The new optical SETI survey telescope is being set up at the Oak Ridge Observatory in Harvard, Massachusetts.

The University of California, Berkeley, home of SERENDIP and SETI@home, is also conducting optical SETI searches. One is being directed by Geoffrey Marcy, an extrasolar planet hunter, and involves examination of records of spectra taken during extrasolar planet hunts for a continuous, rather than pulsed, laser signal. The other Berkeley optical SETI effort is more like that being pursued by the Harvard-Smithsonian group and is being directed by Dan Werthimer of Berkeley, who built the laser detector for the Harvard-Smithsonian group. The Berkeley survey uses a 76-centimeter (30-inch) automated telescope at Leuschner Observatory and an older laser detector built by Werthimer.

The 74m Colossus Telescope is designed to detect optical and thermal signatures of extraterrestrial civilizations from planetary systems within 60 light years from the Sun>>
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:12 pm

alter-ego wrote:In principle, an on-axis 100 Watt 532nm CW laser (1 GHz band width, ≈ 1 picometer) launched with a 14-meter mirror will show a spectral brightness ~20 times brighter than the Sun over that wavelength range.
The problem is with 1/r2 and 100 watts, it's going to be difficult to even detect any photons at all thousands of light years away.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Case » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:54 pm

Guest wrote:I don't know everything about lasers, so this question might be laughable. How are we avoiding shooting down our own space junk?
If we shoot down space junk in a controllable way, then that would be a benefit. There is so much space junk in orbit, that functional spacecrafts are in danger of collisions. Tracking the larger pieces of space junk is a lot of work, and it keeps getting harder to find clear orbits for new satellites. If space junk would re-enter the atmosphere, it would burn up and that would be the end of it, except for VERY large stuff, like a space station (Skylab (1979), Mir (2001)), of which some remains could be recovered.

The Kessler syndrome, proposed by the NASA scientist Donald J. Kessler in 1978, is a scenario in which the density of objects in low Earth orbit (LEO) is high enough that collisions between objects could cause a cascade — each collision generating space debris which increases the likelihood of further collisions. One implication is that the distribution of debris in orbit could render space exploration, and even the use of satellites, unfeasible for many generations.
In relation to the original question, this scenario could suggest to preserve the space junk as-is, as blowing it up would make matters worse.

Aside from the above, I don't think this laser (in the order of about 100 Watt, I think) has the power to damage or alter the orbit of anything in space. The laser is more powerful than the green laser pointer (1 mW) popular at presentations, but much less powerful than the stuff proposed for the Strategic Defense Initiative of the ’80s and current follow-up military research (many thousands of Watts).

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:07 pm

Case wrote:Aside from the above, I don't think this laser (in the order of about 100 Watt, I think) has the power to damage or alter the orbit of anything in space.
That's an understatement, if ever there was one!

100 watts, distributed over a beam diameter of many meters at a couple hundred kilometers height. That's a fraction of the energy of the sunlight hitting satellites.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by zbvhs » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:27 pm

As I understand it, atmospheric irregularities cause the image of a star, say, to bounce around in the telescope's field of view producing a blurred image. The position of the laser spot is known, but it likewise is bounced around by atmospheric distortion. By distorting the mirror, the spot -- and a target in the FOV -- is held in one position for the required exposure time. The mirror distortions occurring are in the micrometer range. Correct?
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:00 pm

zbvhs wrote:As I understand it, atmospheric irregularities cause the image of a star, say, to bounce around in the telescope's field of view producing a blurred image. The position of the laser spot is known, but it likewise is bounced around by atmospheric distortion. By distorting the mirror, the spot -- and a target in the FOV -- is held in one position for the required exposure time. The mirror distortions occurring are in the micrometer range. Correct?
Correct (although the mirror corrections may be submicrometer).

The ideal way of fixing the wavefront is to use a star for reference. But often, there isn't a bright enough star in the field to act as a reference (the correctable region is very small- just a few arcminutes at best). So in that case, a laser is used to generate an artificial star near or on the target. Some newer systems generate multiple reference stars in order to correct a wider field.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by neufer » Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:23 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
zbvhs wrote:
As I understand it, atmospheric irregularities cause the image of a star, say, to bounce around in the telescope's field of view producing a blurred image. The position of the laser spot is known, but it likewise is bounced around by atmospheric distortion. By distorting the mirror, the spot -- and a target in the FOV -- is held in one position for the required exposure time. The mirror distortions occurring are in the micrometer range. Correct?
Correct (although the mirror corrections may be submicrometer).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformable_mirror wrote:
Image
<<Deformable mirrors (DM) are mirrors whose surface can be deformed, in order to achieve wavefront control and correction of optical aberrations. Deformable mirrors are used in combination with wavefront sensors and real-time control systems in adaptive optics.

A DM usually has many degrees of freedom. Typically, these degrees of freedom are associated with the mechanical actuators and it can be roughly taken that one actuator corresponds to one degree of freedom. Actuator stroke is the maximum possible actuator displacement, typically in positive or negative excursions from some central null position. Stroke typically ranges from ±1 to ±10 micrometres. Free actuator stroke limits the maximum amplitude of the corrected wavefront, while the inter-actuator stroke limits the maximum amplitude and gradients of correctable higher-order aberrations.>>
Chris Peterson wrote:
The ideal way of fixing the wavefront is to use a star for reference. But often, there isn't a bright enough star in the field to act as a reference (the correctable region is very small- just a few arcminutes at best). So in that case, a laser is used to generate an artificial star near or on the target. Some newer systems generate multiple reference stars in order to correct a wider field.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_optics wrote:
[img3="Slow motion simulation of typical adaptive optics operation at a telescope.
The left hand side shows what a point source (e.g. small star) would look like through a ground-based telescope without adaptive optics correction. The right hand side shows what is seen after adaptive optics correction has been applied. Note that the adaptive optics corrected image is normally very compact, but occasionally it "breaks up". If long exposure images are taken, the adaptive optics correction produces a sharp point at the centre of the image, while the uncorrected image is just a large fuzzy blob.
"]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _movie.gif[/img3]
<<A natural guide stars alternative is the use of a laser beam to generate a reference light source (a laser guide star, LGS) in the atmosphere. LGSs come in two flavors: Rayleigh guide stars and sodium guide stars. Rayleigh guide stars work by propagating a laser, usually at near ultraviolet wavelengths, and detecting the backscatter from air at altitudes between 15–25 km. Sodium guide stars use laser light at 589 nm to excite sodium atoms in the mesosphere and thermosphere, which then appear to "glow". The LGS can then be used as a wavefront reference in the same way as a natural guide star – except that (much fainter) natural reference stars are still required for image position (tip/tilt) information. The lasers are often pulsed, with measurement of the atmosphere being limited to a window occurring a few microseconds after the pulse has been launched. This allows the system to ignore most scattered light at ground level; only light which has travelled for several microseconds high up into the atmosphere and back is actually detected.>>
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Boomer12k » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:45 pm

Tell that to the millions of blinded Aliens about to SUE US!!!!!!!

Nice Picture....The Galaxy is AWESOME....

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Boomer12k » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:49 pm

"SHOT through the HEART, and YOUR TO BLAME...."....just came to mind....

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by ta152h0 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:06 pm

Is this not an older program that was done years ago ?That image looks familiar.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:36 pm

Boomer12k wrote:Tell that to the millions of blinded Aliens about to SUE US!!!!!!!
Just to put the energy into perspective:

At a distance of 10,000 ly, the beam diameter will be at least 4 ly. For a 100W source, that means that any given square meter aperture will receive one photon every 39 days.

At a distance of 4 ly, the beam diameter will be at least 88 AU. For a 100W source, that means that any given square meter aperture will receive 3 photons per second.

So it's just possible that a very low noise, narrow band detector attached to a large aperture telescope at our nearest star could detect an optical signal from Earth. At the center of the galaxy? I doubt it's physically possible, regardless of technology.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by neufer » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:42 pm

ta152h0 wrote:
Is this not an older program that was done years ago? That image looks familiar.
. http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100906.html
. http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20960
Last edited by neufer on Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by neufer » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:17 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Boomer12k wrote:
Tell that to the millions of blinded Aliens about to SUE US!!!!!!!
Just to put the energy into perspective:

At a distance of 10,000 ly, the beam diameter will be at least 4 ly. For a 100W source, that means that any given square meter aperture will receive one photon every 39 days. At a distance of 4 ly, the beam diameter will be at least 88 AU. For a 100W source, that means that any given square meter aperture will receive 3 photons per second. So it's just possible that a very low noise, narrow band detector attached to a large aperture telescope at our nearest star could detect an optical signal from Earth. At the center of the galaxy? I doubt it's physically possible, regardless of technology.
  • We can fix that :!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIRACL wrote: <<MIRACL, or Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser, is a directed energy weapon developed by the US Navy. It is a deuterium fluoride laser, a type of chemical laser.

The MIRACL laser first became operational in 1980. It can produce over a megawatt of output for up to 70 seconds, making it the most powerful continuous wave (CW) laser in the US. Its original goal was to be able to track and destroy anti-ship cruise missiles, but in later years it was used to test phenomenologies associated with national anti-ballistic and anti-satellite laser weapons. Originally tested at a contractor facility in California, as of the later 1990s and early 2000s, it was located at a facility (32.632°N 106.332°W) in the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. The beam size in the resonator is about 21 cm high and 3 cm wide. The beam is then reshaped to a 14 x 14 cm square.

In 1997, amid much controversy, MIRACL was tested against a US Air Force satellite in orbit at a distance of 432 km. The satellite was disabled but the Air Force did not get the data from the satellite it had hoped for.>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride_laser wrote:
<<The hydrogen fluoride laser is an infrared chemical laser. It is capable of delivering continuous output power in the megawatt range. Hydrogen fluoride lasers operate at the wavelength of 2.7-2.9 µm. This wavelength is absorbed by the atmosphere, effectively attenuating the beam and reducing its reach, unless used in a vacuum environment. However, when deuterium is used instead of hydrogen, the deuterium fluoride lases at the wavelength of about 3.8 µm. This makes the deuterium fluoride laser usable for terrestrial operations.

The deuterium fluoride laser constructionally resembles a rocket engine. In the combustion chamber, ethylene is burned in nitrogen trifluoride. This reaction produces free excited fluorine radicals. Just after the nozzle, the mixture of helium and hydrogen or deuterium gas is injected to the exhaust stream; the hydrogen or deuterium reacts with the fluorine radicals, producing excited molecules of deuterium or hydrogen fluoride. The excited molecules then undergo stimulated emission in the optical resonator region of the laser.

Deuterium fluoride lasers have found military applications: the MIRACL laser, the Pulsed Energy Projectile and the Tactical High Energy Lasers are of the deuterium fluoride type. An Argentine-American physicist and accused spy, Leonardo Mascheroni, has proposed the idea of using hydrogen fluoride lasers to produce nuclear fusion.>>
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:32 pm

neufer wrote:We can fix that :!:
Still only a photon per square meter every few minutes at the center of the galaxy.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by neufer » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:57 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
We can fix that :!:
Still only a photon per square meter every few minutes at the center of the galaxy.
That's OK. I don't know anyone at the center of the galaxy.
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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by BDanielMayfield » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:09 pm

Nuefer’s militaristic brute force fix uses more power to pump out many more photons, but you’d still have the beam broadening problem over vast distances, wouldn’t you? (Also, hydrogen fluoride is a nicer way of saying hydrofluoric acid, which is I believe the most corrosive acid known, so its use is extremely hazardous.)

A beam spreading to 88 AU over just 4 LY is terrible, but I trust Chris’ math. Please excuse my ignorance, but why wouldn’t it be possible to greatly lengthen a low wattage laser’s collimation (that is, beam tightness) using a lens or lenses to sharply focus the beam?

Let’s assume for the sake of discussion that we have probes and even a human presence in the Alpha Cen system at some point. Discounting FTL communications (which may very likely always remain just a sci-fi notion), how would we communicate with our probes or relatives at such distances? Would radio waves always be the best part of the EM spectrum to use?

And don’t say “Very Slowly.” That would be a given. :D
Just as zero is not equal to infinity, everything coming from nothing is illogical.

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Re: APOD: A Laser Strike at the Galactic Center (2013 Dec 01

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:17 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:A beam spreading to 88 AU over just 4 LY is terrible, but I trust Chris’ math. Please excuse my ignorance, but why wouldn’t it be possible to greatly lengthen a low wattage laser’s collimation (that is, beam tightness) using a lens or lenses to sharply focus the beam?
That's not terrible at all. That's the divergence you get with a perfectly collimated Gaussian beam. You can't do better- this is just the result of the way the beam interferes with itself. A geometrically collimated (parallel) beam can't exist in nature.

Whether radio or optical communications are better over a few light years depends on details of the technology. Certainly, we should be able to use either, depending on engineering tradeoffs.
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