No Alien Visits or UFO Coverups

[geckzilla]

They look like humanoid figures with some fancy headdress or possibly halos.

[wonderboy]

http://gigapan.com/gigapans/118123

check this out in utah! explain all you like but those arent humans.

[geckzilla]

Yes, they are. They are representations of humans and animals and they were created by humans. You are being foolish and uninformed.

[Chris Peterson]

well thats precisely my point. why dont we assume we haven't been duped by our ancestors messages and look at them for what they are. I do not believe that my early ancestors were THAT bad at drawing. look at these Petroglyphs from Val Camonica Italy? what are they?

My first assumption would be a couple of guys with headdresses and sticks doing a dance. Indeed, we see tribal dancers that look just like this in many, many cultures.

[Chris Peterson]

I have a theory (if you can call it that) on Alien Visitation.

The fundamental weakness in any such theory is the near impossibility of anything other than machines traveling across interstellar distances... and if machines were doing it, they should be everywhere.

what we do know is that there are cave drawings from thousands of years ago depicting aliens or strange beings, there are heiroglyphics also showing similar drawings of crafts and aliens (if you take the drawings literally that is) they speak of gods ascending and descending from heavens...

I've never seen anything that remotely made me think aliens or spaceships were being represented. I've seen such claims, though. They are pretty laughable, and betray a powerful lack of imagination on the part of the claimants. Why a lack of imagination in seeing such fanciful things? Because of the fact that they can only imagine that aliens or alien spaceships would take the form of something from bad 1950s science fiction movies.

[rstevenson]

dont go with what art historians have said or anthropolgists. what does it look like to you as another person whos early ancestor drew this?

Are you saying that if I, not currently an art historian or anthropologist, told you my opinion about a petroglyph, you'd take it seriously. But if I were to take the time and make the effort to get a degree in one of those fields, you would not take my opinion seriously then? Really?

Rob

[Ann]

Wonderboy wrote:
what we do know is that there are cave drawings from thousands of years ago depicting aliens or strange beings, there are heiroglyphics also showing similar drawings of crafts and aliens (if you take the drawings literally that is) they speak of gods ascending and descending from heavens...

Click to view full size image

Sun god Ra. Read about image source here.

I don't think so. In ancient religions, the sky, the sun, the moon and the stars were often personified. For example, this is the Egyptian Sun god Ra, who is carrying the Sun on his head. The idea of someone having a brilliant light around his or her head later evolved into the idea of halos around the the heads of saints. Who says this idea hasn't traveled to other parts of the world too, or, alternatively, who says that other peoples haven't come up with similar ideas on their own?

That picture you showed us of two apparently floating people "wearing space helmets" is from Italy, located close to Egypt and a center of early Christianity. You can be certain that the people there were aware of the idea of human-like beings carrying brilliant lights around their heads. The idea of people ascending to heaven is another well-known idea in Christianity and in ancient Egyptian and Greek mythology too.

In other words, the suggestion that those petroglyphs should be interpreted as aliens dressed up in space gear, even though an extremely likely alternative explanation is at hand, is so far-fetched that it doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

Ann

[wonderboy]

dont go with what art historians have said or anthropolgists. what does it look like to you as another person whos early ancestor drew this?

Are you saying that if I, not currently an art historian or anthropologist, told you my opinion about a petroglyph, you'd take it seriously. But if I were to take the time and make the effort to get a degree in one of those fields, you would not take my opinion seriously then? Really?

Rob

No. not in the slightest. however sometimes its good to take a somewhat uninformed view. i work in car sales and its a proven fact that the less you know about the intracacies of finance etc the better you do as your knowledge base isnt convolluted with too much information.

what i am saying is that just looking at the pictures on caves, the drawings could be tribal dancers, however the proportions are too far out for me to be accidental. look at the size and shape of the head for instance they are both similar in both petroglyphs in size and shape. i do not believe that they were that bad at drawing to get a basic human head shape and size THAT wrong.

for the record a degree in both fields is something i wish i had, rather than law

[rstevenson]

what i am saying is that just looking at the pictures on caves, the drawings could be tribal dancers, however the proportions are too far out for me to be accidental. look at the size and shape of the head for instance they are both similar in both petroglyphs in size and shape. i do not believe that they were that bad at drawing to get a basic human head shape and size THAT wrong.

I think you may need to look into art history a bit. The idea of depicting humans or their surroundings realistically is a relatively recent phenomenom, only taking hold firmly a few hundred years ago. Art in the more distant past had largely symbolic purpose and the most symbolic aspects of the art would have been emphasized in size and in colour in order to ensure the message was perceived by the viewer. (Judging from the reported reactions of some members of "primitive" societies to photographs of themselves, it would have been a very unwise, and perhaps short-lived, artist who thousands of years ago created a realistic image of a member of their tribe.)

I understand what you are saying about the drawings. Many others have said the same things and had the same doubts about our current interpretations of these old paintings and drawings. But reading them as symbolic and entirely about human issues and situations is not an arbitrary or capricious choice. It's based on a considerable body of knowledge which should not be tossed out lightly.

Rob

[neufer]

the proportions are too far out for me to be accidental. look at the size and shape of the head for instance... i do not believe that they were that bad at drawing to get a basic human head shape and size THAT wrong.

Art in the more distant past had largely symbolic purpose and the most symbolic aspects of the art would have been emphasized in size and in colour in order to ensure the message was perceived by the viewer. Many others have said the same things and had the same doubts about our current interpretations of these old paintings and drawings. But reading them as symbolic and entirely about human issues and situations is not an arbitrary or capricious choice.

[owlice]

its a proven fact that the less you know about the intracacies of finance etc the better you do as your knowledge base isnt convolluted with too much information.

Proven where, by whom? And who is it that does better, the salesperson?

[Chris Peterson]

what i am saying is that just looking at the pictures on caves, the drawings could be tribal dancers, however the proportions are too far out for me to be accidental. look at the size and shape of the head for instance they are both similar in both petroglyphs in size and shape. i do not believe that they were that bad at drawing to get a basic human head shape and size THAT wrong.

Most people are that bad at drawing. And that assumes an intent to be morphologically accurate. By your standards, Picasso, Chagall, Munch were all bad artists.

More important to me, however, is that the figures are far too human to be anything but. Unless you are part of the Star Trek school of alienology, where the only thing distinguishing intelligent species is the amount of crap on their forehead, it's vanishingly unlikely to think that any aliens visiting the Earth would be remotely humanoid.

[geckzilla]

Wow, I don't know about Chagall, but Munch and Picasso both had a lot of training. Picasso's early works were especially realistic. I am sure you already know this, Chris, but I think it's important to further note that even when an artist is extremely stylized they almost always have training for realistic proportions and a lot of life drawing time behind them. Quite often it happens that a person thinks he or she can simply jump right into cartooning when in fact they are bad at it until the basics are learned. Indeed, drawing a human "correctly" takes a lot of skill and a lot of practice, whether it's with a certain style or simple realism.

[Chris Peterson]

Wow, I don't know about Chagall, but Munch and Picasso both had a lot of training. Picasso's early works were especially realistic. I am sure you already know this, Chris, but I think it's important to further note that even when an artist is extremely stylized they almost always have training for realistic proportions and a lot of life drawing time behind them. Quite often it happens that a person thinks he or she can simply jump right into cartooning when in fact they are bad at it until the basics are learned. Indeed, drawing a human "correctly" takes a lot of skill and a lot of practice, whether it's with a certain style or simple realism.

Of course, if you have the opportunity to view all of their work, their skill is apparent. But each of them produced a substantial body of work in which the human form was grotesquely represented, as well. My only point being, that simply seeing an image that misrepresents the proportions of the human body provides very little information about the skill of the artist.

[geckzilla]

Yes, we definitely needed to include a little more information for that point to be conveyed clearly.

Wonderboy, you are slapping bits of water in a tiny puddle. The ocean of knowledge awaits you.

[rstevenson]

... you are slapping bits of water in a tiny puddle. The ocean of knowledge awaits you.

A delightful image!

Rob

[wonderboy]

you have no idea how much I have learned off of you guys over the years. because of the vastness of everything astronomy and space related i find my brain works overtime trying to convey points; take points in and formulate ideas of my own.

this one I had is one I have had for a while.

it baffles me how structures like those at saksaywaman could be built without help... and it kinda stands to reason that I don't think they did it without help.

[geckzilla]

it baffles me how structures like those at saksaywaman could be built without help... and it kinda stands to reason that I don't think they did it without help.

The debunking documentary I linked to earlier in the thread can quickly help you understand that ancient humans had just as much ingenuity as modern day humans. The lacked the accumulated knowledge we have built up to now but they were every bit as intelligent.

[Chris Peterson]

it baffles me how structures like those at saksaywaman could be built without help... and it kinda stands to reason that I don't think they did it without help.

And yet, it is fairly well understood how they were built (and even details of the tools used are known). Archaeologists have since tested the ability of a group of people working together, using only simple tools, to build identical structures.

It is dangerous to let a lack of personal knowledge about how something might have been done evolve into fanciful ideas not well grounded in reality. People's intelligence hasn't changed substantially in thousands of years. Many complex things can be done with nothing but primitive tools and a lot of manpower.

[wonderboy]

it baffles me how structures like those at saksaywaman could be built without help... and it kinda stands to reason that I don't think they did it without help.

And yet, it is fairly well understood how they were built (and even details of the tools used are known). Archaeologists have since tested the ability of a group of people working together, using only simple tools, to build identical structures.

It is dangerous to let a lack of personal knowledge about how something might have been done evolve into fanciful ideas not well grounded in reality. People's intelligence hasn't changed substantially in thousands of years. Many complex things can be done with nothing but primitive tools and a lot of manpower.

My bad.

[mjimih]

IMO it depicts 2 important (head halo) people holding tools. It does not conjure up thoughts of extra terrestrials. It will be in our face if ET visits whether by accident or on purpose. Little hints and possible circumstantial evidence left behind is not enough 4 me. The distances between stars is too great to travel. Except maybe for civilizations that can create the most durable, the fastest, and the most essentially "life-supporting" spaceships to actually arrive here with. Based on our new revelations about how many gazillions of star systems there are out there, a few ships like that may exist. But I have only seen the one in District 9