Cosmic Stupidity

[Ann]

In the Astronomically Bad Jokes (Or Good) thread, geckzilla posted the following example of bottomless internet stupidity:

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Admittedly that's a hard one to beat! I can't beat it, but the 'walking on the Sun (in the winter when the sun is like 30 degrees) or at night' jaw-dropping imbecility reminds me a little of Ray Bradbury's short story "The Golden Apples of the Sun". Here astronauts maneuver their own spaceship directly into the Sun to scoop up some solar atmosphere in order to bring it home to Earth for analysis. Even back when I read it, I was flabbergasted at the idea. Are you aware that one of the reasons why planet Venus remains so unexplored is that Venus is so dangerously hot at circa 400C? That heat quickly breaks down Earthly equipment, including spaceships. But even though it is hard for us to use our equipment at 400C, it would be alright to steer our own manned spaceship into the Sun and enjoy its close to 6,000C heat?

What makes the idea seem so utterly mad is that Bradbury was a very respected writer of science fiction, admittedly one who was a lot more interested in the fiction than in the science. Even so, he should have realized the madness of sending astronauts into the Sun! Hey, even the ancients who didn't know the nature of the Sun would have told him his idea was impossible. Just consider the myth of Icarus, who got burnt just by flying high in the sky.

Do you know any examples where people have gotten cosmic ideas astronomically wrong?

Ann

[Beyond]

Well, the Icarus story doesn't say that he got burnt by the sun. It does say that the sun melted the wax that held the feathers, so he ended up falling into the sea and drowing. So... does that count??

[Ann]

I don't know. Maybe the wax holding the spaceship together would melt at the photosphere of the Sun, sending the astronauts into the 15 million K center of the Sun not to be drowned but to be vaporized, maybe to emerge again millions of years later as photons of light and heat from the Sun?

Ann

[geckzilla]

Er, well I do actually think they were joking. I'm sure the questions boards like that get trolled all the time. That one was just pretty funny.

[Chris Peterson]

Admittedly that's a hard one to beat! I can't beat it, but the 'walking on the Sun (in the winter when the sun is like 30 degrees) or at night' jaw-dropping imbecility reminds me a little of Ray Bradbury's short story "The Golden Apples of the Sun". Here astronauts maneuver their own spaceship directly into the Sun to scoop up some solar atmosphere in order to bring it home to Earth for analysis. Even back when I read it, I was flabbergasted at the idea. Are you aware that one of the reasons why planet Venus remains so unexplored is that Venus is so dangerously hot at circa 400C? That heat quickly breaks down Earthly equipment, including spaceships. But even though it is hard for us to use our equipment at 400C, it would be alright to steer our own manned spaceship into the Sun and enjoy its close to 6,000C heat?

What makes the idea seem so utterly mad is that Bradbury was a very respected writer of science fiction, admittedly one who was a lot more interested in the fiction than in the science. Even so, he should have realized the madness of sending astronauts into the Sun! Hey, even the ancients who didn't know the nature of the Sun would have told him his idea was impossible. Just consider the myth of Icarus, who got burnt just by flying high in the sky.

Do you know any examples where people have gotten cosmic ideas astronomically wrong?

I don't think Bradbury got anything wrong at all. Temperature is a complex concept. For instance, the temperature of the medium that ISS moves through can exceed 2500 C, and it clearly does just fine. At the upper edges of the solar atmosphere, the gas density is very low, so a probe would primarily need to protect itself from radiant energy, which is much easier to deal with than conducted energy. Suffice to say, a solar sampling probe seems highly possible, and is just an engineering problem- and a pretty manageable one, I think.

[Ann]

I'm not arguing, Chris. However, temperature is just one of the problems when sending a manned spaceship into the outer layers of the Sun. There is, I assume, a higher than solar-system-average level of hard rays and dangerous high-energy emission when you are practically touching the Sun. Then there is the idea of counteracting the gravity of the Sun to return to the Earth again. What is the escape velocity at the photosphere of the Sun? In order to escape from the Sun, I imagine you would have to whiz by extremely fast. That, however, may increase the temperature (as your spacecraft is running into the atmosphere of the Sun at very high speeds). And what about the G forces acting on the astronauts in the spaceship during this Sun-grazing maneuver?

Ann

[Chris Peterson]

I'm not arguing, Chris. However, temperature is just one of the problems when sending a manned spaceship into the outer layers of the Sun. There is, I assume, a higher than solar-system-average level of hard rays and dangerous high-energy emission when you are practically touching the Sun. Then there is the idea of counteracting the gravity of the Sun to return to the Earth again. What is the escape velocity at the photosphere of the Sun? In order to escape from the Sun, I imagine you would have to whiz by extremely fast. That, however, may increase the temperature (as your spacecraft is running into the atmosphere of the Sun at very high speeds). And what about the G forces acting on the astronauts in the spaceship during this Sun-grazing maneuver?

I don't think the gravitational forces are significant. The other issues all involve shielding of various sorts, and remain engineering problems, not fundamental scientific ones. Good science fiction minimizes the amount of new science required (and stays internally consistent with anything new), but generally is liberal with assuming advanced engineering capabilities.

In looking for astronomically stupid ideas, I'd stick with those that ignore science, or take broad liberties with it, as opposed to those which simply assume impressive engineering like space elevators or Dyson spheres.

[neufer]

Suffice to say, a solar sampling probe seems highly possible, and is just an engineering problem- and a pretty manageable one, I think.

Perhaps; but it is a rather pointless engineering project considering what Joseph von Fraunhofer and many others have been able to accomplish with spectroscopy over a wide spectrum of wavelengths and polarizations. (They have even performed remote sensing on the interior of the sun by observing sound waves, gravitational perturbations and neutrinos.)

[Chris Peterson]

Perhaps; but it is a rather pointless engineering project considering what Joseph von Fraunhofer and many others have been able to accomplish with spectroscopy over a wide spectrum of wavelengths and polarizations. (They have even performed remote sensing on the interior of the sun by observing sound waves, gravitational perturbations and neutrinos.)

No disagreement. Of course, the story wasn't about the scientific goal at all, but merely used this scenario to set up a situation that explored human behavior- a typical technique found in good fiction.

[rstevenson]

Do you know any examples where people have gotten cosmic ideas astronomically wrong?

If we broaden the question to include any movie or story which ignores physics, then there are a wealth of examples. Virtually any "action" movie, from the Bourne movies to James Bond to Transformers to ... , well, let's just leave it at almost any action movie, contains multiple instances of stupidity in the name of entertainment.

For example, they all make huge mistakes about the body's ability to withstand blunt force trauma, or they seem to want the viewer to believe that people have beyond-Olympian jumping or running or hitting or thinking ability. There's also the seemingly magical ability to recover from injuries or exhaustion or terror. And don't get me started on bodies with "new" abilities -- i.e. Spiderman -- without regard for the energy needed to run these new abilities. Or bodies that only need to be cleverly covered up -- i.e. Iron Man, Batman, etc. -- in order to withstand forces that would otherwise kill or maim them easily.

And then there are the vehicular howlers. For example, in the movie Speed, when the bus has to cross a gap in an under-construction highway of about 50' or more, it literally rises up and flies across and the passengers are just a little shaken up when it lands and continues merrily on its way. Gravity was repealed for the jump, and material science didn't enter into any consideration of breakage of suspension components. And one of the characters was standing up holding onto a seat back during this jump and landing, so we also need to assume, for no reason at all, that he has super-human muscles, sinews and bones.

I watch a fair amount of TV and movies, and I often find myself thinking, "The laws of physics need not apply" when I see something stupid like that. Unfortunately, perhaps due to poor science schooling, there are people who believe such depictions are realistic, and they seek, in such activities as street racing or extreme jumping, to emulate them -- often with tragic results.

Rob

[geckzilla]

They ignore more than physics... even basic human anatomy! If you ever get shot in the shoulder below your clavicle you can't just ignore the pain and move on, either. All movies neglect to mention there's a lung right there and it's going to fill with blood and lose its functionality. Yep, you're going to be knocked on your ass for sure if you get shot there!

[Chris Peterson]

For example, they all make huge mistakes about the body's ability to withstand blunt force trauma, or they seem to want the viewer to believe that people have beyond-Olympian jumping or running or hitting or thinking ability.

I remember watching The Six Million Dollar Man. Even as a teenager, I realized that if you jumped off a tall building, your bionic legs were not going to stop your non-bionic spine from compressing to about 3 inches high, or that unless you had bionic toes that operated like tree roots, being super strong wasn't going to allow you to pull a helicopter back to the ground (they never said he was super heavy).

[rstevenson]

Yes, having a partly bionic body just wasn't going to work very well!

Rob

[owlice]

Hey, I have a partly bionic body and it's working just fine, thank you very much, and at some point in time, expect an increase in the bionics and even better working!!