The perils of being a scientist

Off topic discourse and banter encouraged.
User avatar
owlice
Guardian of the Codes
Posts: 8406
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by owlice » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:04 pm

I'm not sure the "wide audience" wants to be reached.
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

User avatar
rstevenson
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Posts: 2705
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by rstevenson » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:18 pm

makc wrote:Oh great, I was under impression you don't think that reaching wide audience is all that important.
You have an odd idea of what constitutes reaching a wide audience. You offer a dopey book review as a good example of communication, but trash the article I linked to (and the authors of it) even though the authors engaged in the debate in that article are both read by vast numbers of people world wide, with one of them -- George Monbiot -- probably read by millions every week. And you, without reading them at all, think you know more about reaching a wide audience than they do. :shock:

I wouldn't consider it a primary goal of an author to reach a wide audience -- though I'm sure they're happy when they do. But it definitely is a primary goal of a reader to read widely.

Rob

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:16 pm

makc wrote:
rstevenson wrote:A way must be found to educate those not interested in being educated, to engage the indifferent, to spread the messages of science and education faster than the messages of ignorance and fear.
Oh great, I was under impression you don't think that reaching wide audience is all that important.
In seeking a way to educate those who are not interested in being educated, we would be dealing with a very wide audience.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
rstevenson
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Posts: 2705
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by rstevenson » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:38 pm

Yes, I'm afraid so Chris. But as a species we have now reached a point where our technological powers and their results on the environment far exceed our ability to adjust. Our only hope (too late now, I'm afraid) is to educate enough people to the perils of going on like this in time to do something about it.

Apropos of which, this afternoon I followed a link in the George Monbiot Wikipedia page to a site about a movie called The Age of Stupid, then rented it and have just finished watching it. It's a powerful condemnation of exactly that -- going on like this, as if there were no consequences. But of course, any attempt to act responsibly will be met with exactly the sort of misunderstanding, name calling, and witch hunting that has surrounded the climate change debate to this point, and which was exemplified in the first article I linked to up at the top of this thread.

If I live about as long as my father did, I'll live until the early 2040s and will witness some of the expected dire results of global warming. I can only hope to avoid the worst of those effects myself, and perhaps, if I'm able, to contribute a little to their lessening.

Rob

User avatar
rstevenson
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Posts: 2705
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by rstevenson » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:54 pm

neufer wrote:The U.S. is a media fan country enthralled with sports heroes & TV/movies stars.
I just did a little looking up...

According to salary.com, the base salary of high school teachers in the USA ranges from about $42,000 to about $62,000/yr (from the 25th to the 75th percentile.)

According to a variety of sites, the average NBA salary in 2006 was just under $5,000,000/yr.

Society pays most for what it values most.

Rob

PS - What does an astrophysicist earn these days? Salary.com didn't have any idea. :cry:

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 am

rstevenson wrote:PS - What does an astrophysicist earn these days? Salary.com didn't have any idea.
If you're in an academic setting (like a university), the median is probably around $100K. Not a lot of astrophysicists outside academia, but physicists can easily earn a few hundred thousand dollars a year in industry.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:26 am

rstevenson wrote:Yes, I'm afraid so Chris. But as a species we have now reached a point where our technological powers and their results on the environment far exceed our ability to adjust. Our only hope (too late now, I'm afraid) is to educate enough people to the perils of going on like this in time to do something about it.
I also think it might already be too late to fix things before western societies collapse. I hope I'm wrong. I'm also happy I live far from any cities and if necessary could do pretty well being totally self-sufficient.
Apropos of which, this afternoon I followed a link in the George Monbiot Wikipedia page to a site about a movie called The Age of Stupid, then rented it and have just finished watching it.
Looks quite good. Doesn't seem to be available in the U.S. just yet, but hopefully soon.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

makc
Commodore
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:25 pm

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by makc » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:30 am

rstevenson wrote:You offer a dopey book review as a good example of communication
No that's not the reason I brought that in. I'm sorry that you can't see it.
rstevenson wrote:one of them -- George Monbiot -- probably read by millions every week
Never heard of him :) In the world with population of 7 billions, millions is very small %.
rstevenson wrote:And you, without reading them at all, think you know more about reaching a wide audience than they do. :shock:
Absolutely, as I am one of that numerous audience that they do not reach.
you should know who wrote:Nor do I hold with those who regard it as a presumption if a man of low and humble condition dare to discuss and settle the concerns of princes; because, just as those who draw landscapes place themselves below in the plain to contemplate the nature of the mountains and of lofty places, and in order to contemplate the plains place themselves upon high mountains, even so to understand the nature of the people it needs to be a prince, and to understand that of princes it needs to be of the people.

User avatar
wonderboy
Commander
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:57 am
AKA: Paul
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by wonderboy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:34 pm

The perils of being a bad Al Qaeda bomb making scientist are far higher than those of normal scientists haha...


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 544334.ece


Gotta watch out for them chemicals, you could end up with a hook for a hand.
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark" Muhammad Ali, faster than the speed of light?

User avatar
bystander
Apathetic Retiree
Posts: 21592
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
Location: Oklahoma

BA: Climate scientists cleared of malpractice by panel

Post by bystander » Wed May 05, 2010 5:35 pm

Climate scientists cleared of malpractice by panel
Bad Astronomy: 05 May 2010
Score yet another one for reality: a panel of six scientists have investigated the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit — the target of the so-called "climategate" — and has cleared them of "any deliberate scientific malpractice". Moreover, they found that while the scientists at the CRU could have been better organized and could use some assistance from statistics professionals, their overall methodology is sound.

In other words, the major cries of foul from global warming deniers when it came to climategate are turning into whimpers.

As a backstory, you may wish to read two earlier posts I wrote on this topic, the first introducing climategate, and a second following up to clarify some points. Basically, some emails from climate scientists were leaked by a still-unknown hacker, and to some people it indicated knowingly fraudulent activity by the scientists. However, those of us familiar with the way science and scientists actually work knew from the start there was nothing nefarious going on.

When the emails were made public, a lot of noise came from the usual places. The deniers went into overdrive. But it turns out they were just spinning their wheels. This is the second investigation to show nothing bad was going on; the first was from a Parliamentary committee which also cleared the scientists of any wrongdoing.

So now we have a panel of politicians as well as a panel of scientists, both of whom have concluded that the CRU scientists are honest. Kinda makes you wonder where Inhofe and Cuccinelli are going, doesn’t it?
Being from Oklahoma, I'm quite embarrassed about Jim Inhofe. When it comes to science, he is seriously misinformed.

User avatar
bystander
Apathetic Retiree
Posts: 21592
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
Location: Oklahoma

BA: A look behind the curtain of the Heartland Institute

Post by bystander » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:06 pm

A look behind the curtain of the Heartland Institute’s climate change spin
Discover Blogs | Bad Astronomy | 2012 Feb 15
The Heartland Institute — a self-described "think tank" that actually serves in part as a way for climate change denialism to get funded — has a potentially embarrassing situation on their hands. Someone going by the handle "Heartland Insider" has anonymously released quite a few of what are claimed to be internal documents from Heartland, revealing the Institute’s strategies, funds, and much more.

These documents are available over at DeSmogBlog. Several people are going over them, and so far they appear legit. You can read some relevant discussions at DeSmogBlog, Deep Climate, Planet 3, Greg Laden, ClimateCrocks, Shawn Otto, and Think Progress. John Mashey at DeSmogBlog has more info that also corroborates the leaked documents, and to call it blistering is to severely underestimate it.

One thing I want to point out right away which is very illuminating, if highly disturbing, about what Heartland allegedly wants to do: they are considering developing a curriculum for teachers to use in the classroom to sow confusion about climate change. I know, it sounds like I’m making that up, but I’m not. In this document they say:
  • [Dr. Wojick's] effort will focus on providing curriculum that shows that the topic of climate change is controversial and uncertain – two key points that are effective at dissuading teachers from teaching science.
That seems clear enough, doesn’t it? From that, it sure sounds like they want to dissuade teachers from teaching science. I imagine there will be a lot of spin about how this quote is out of context, or a typo, or something alone those lines. Perhaps. But I remember all the hammering real scientists took when they used jargon in their emails to each other, jargon which was gleefully misinterpreted to make it seem as if these scientists were faking data. Interesting how this is pointing right back at them. Just as I said it does.

When it comes to all this, the comparison to "Climategate" springs to mind, but there’s one enormous difference: Climategate was manufactured, a made-up controversy (what I call a manufactroversy) that had no real teeth — as was its failed sequel. The emails released weren’t damning at all, and didn’t show scientists tinkering with or faking data. As much as the media made of it, as much as climate change denial blogs played them up, it has been shown again and again that Climategate was all sound and fury, signifying nothing.

These new documents, though, look different, especially given that quote above. The next few days should be very interesting as people start digging into them, especially if they prove to be authentic.

And how ironic! It was the Heartland Institute themselves who played up Climategate quite a bit. Back in 2009 when they were trumpeting Climategate, Heartland said:
  • The release of these documents creates an opportunity for reporters, academics, politicians, and others who relied on the IPCC to form their opinions about global warming to stop and reconsider their position. The experts they trusted and quoted in the past have been caught red-handed plotting to conceal data, hide temperature trends that contradict their predictions, and keep critics from appearing in peer-reviewed journals. This is new and real evidence that they should examine and then comment on publicly.
That claim from them is nonsense, but it will be interesting to see how happy they are when the tables are turned, and "reporters, academics, politicians, and others" look into their documents. And around that same time they also said:
  • For anyone who doubts the power of the Internet to shine light on darkness, the news of the month is how digital technology helped uncover a secretive group of scientists who suppressed data, froze others out of the debate, and flouted freedom-of-information laws.
Again, none of that is true. But that claim about freezing out others sticks out, especially in light of another of these leaked Heartland internal memos which says,
  • Efforts at places such as Forbes are especially important now that they have begun to allow high-profile climate scientists (such as [Peter] Gleick) to post warmist science essays that counter our own. This influential audience has usually been reliably anti-climate and it is important to keep opposing voices out.
Emphasis mine. Yes, that sounds like a group interested in promoting "sound science".

Wow. Just, wow.
Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

User avatar
BMAONE23
Commentator Model 1.23
Posts: 4076
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by BMAONE23 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:41 pm

Heartland Institute wrote:FEBRUARY 15, 2012 – The following statement from The Heartland Institute – a free-market think tank – may be used for attribution. For more information, contact Communications Director Jim Lakely at jlakely@heartland.org and 312/377-4000.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yesterday afternoon, two advocacy groups posted online several documents they claimed were The Heartland Institute’s 2012 budget, fundraising, and strategy plans. Some of these documents were stolen from Heartland, at least one is a fake, and some may have been altered.

The stolen documents appear to have been written by Heartland’s president for a board meeting that took place on January 17. He was traveling at the time this story broke yesterday afternoon and still has not had the opportunity to read them all to see if they were altered. Therefore, the authenticity of those documents has not been confirmed.

Since then, the documents have been widely reposted on the Internet, again with no effort to confirm their authenticity.

One document, titled “Confidential Memo: 2012 Heartland Climate Strategy,” is a total fake apparently intended to defame and discredit The Heartland Institute. It was not written by anyone associated with The Heartland Institute. It does not express Heartland’s goals, plans, or tactics. It contains several obvious and gross misstatements of fact. (snip)
source (

User avatar
geckzilla
Ocular Digitator
Posts: 9180
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:42 pm
Location: Modesto, CA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by geckzilla » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:18 am

:roll: He said, she said, he said, she said...
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by Chris Peterson » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:50 am

geckzilla wrote::roll: He said, she said, he said, she said...
Yes... but in this case, we have an organization that is known to spread false information, and operates in a non-transparent manner. It's going to be interesting to see how they actually go about showing any of the documents are false without doing themselves further harm by what they need to reveal.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
bystander
Apathetic Retiree
Posts: 21592
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by bystander » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:49 pm

Hip, hip, hypocrisy!
Discover Blogs | Bad Astronomy | 2012 Feb 16
Let’s hope the Heartland Institute pursues this perfidious document leaker with the same vigor, moral certitude, and righteous fury with which they went after the criminal who stole the climate scientist emails.

Oh, wait.

Heartland Feels The Heat Over Anti-Science Climate Change Strategy
Forbes | Steve Zwick | 2012 Feb 16
Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

User avatar
BMAONE23
Commentator Model 1.23
Posts: 4076
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:55 pm
Location: California

Heartland Memo looking Faker by the Minute

Post by BMAONE23 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:36 pm

By Megan McArdle wrote: The Atlantic

After yesterday's post on why I thought that one of the documents in the Heartland leak was a fake, I discovered that David Appell had been investigating along the same lines. Appell, however, looked at one thing that hadn't occurred to me: where the PDF was created. One of his commenters elaborates:

I used a pdfinfo script to analyse the memos. The info I got is that all the meta data dates changed on the day of the leak in the Pacific time zone (-8 GMT). This is likely where our thief resides. This is also where the "fake" was created on 2/13. The other docs, with the exception of the IRS form were in the central time zone (-6 GMT). The IRS form was -4 GMT. This has been corroborated by a commenter at Lucia's. Based on this, and I'm not sure if I've covered every base, the strategy memo is a fake.

The only other option would be if the create dates were faked, highly, highly unlikely or, the sender from HI didn't have the doc, and someone from the west coast scanned it , emailed to her to send to the leaker. This, to me, doesn't seem likely either. Logically, I have to go with HI's story.

Leaked Docs From Heartland Institute Cause a Stir-but Is One a Fake

Over the course of a few days, details have emerged. According to Heartland, someone contacted them pretending to be a board member, and requested that the organization "resend" their annual meeting board package to an alternative email address. And apparently some gullible staffer actually complied. The result is here. There are loads of juicy details about who donates what, and who gets money from Heartland.

Predictably, climate blogs are having a field day. Much of the attention has centered around an explosive document titled "2012 Heartland Climate Strategy", which contains stuff like their plans for "dissuading [K-12 teachers] from teaching science".

Heartland has confirmed the provenance of most of the documents, in a blustery press release which I think they're going to end up regretting heartily:

The individuals who have commented so far on these documents did not wait for Heartland to confirm or deny the authenticity of the documents. We believe their actions constitute civil and possibly criminal offenses for which we plan to pursue charges and collect payment for damages, including damages to our reputation. We ask them in particular to immediately remove these documents and all statements about them from the blogs, Web sites, and publications, and to publish retractions.

User avatar
neufer
Vacationer at Tralfamadore
Posts: 18805
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by neufer » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:54 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Art Neuendorffer

User avatar
BMAONE23
Commentator Model 1.23
Posts: 4076
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:55 pm
Location: California

Source of Heartland Institute document theft comes foreward

Post by BMAONE23 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:04 am

It's Dr Peter H Gleick of Pacific Institute in Oakland
At the beginning of 2012, I received an anonymous document in the mail describing what appeared to be details of the Heartland Institute's climate program strategy. It contained information about their funders and the Institute's apparent efforts to muddy public understanding about climate science and policy. I do not know the source of that original document but assumed it was sent to me because of my past exchanges with Heartland and because I was named in it.

Given the potential impact however, I attempted to confirm the accuracy of the information in this document. In an effort to do so, and in a serious lapse of my own and professional judgment and ethics, I solicited and received additional materials directly from the Heartland Institute under someone else's name.
Interestingly, Looking at the Metadata in the PDF docs mailed to Dr. Gleick, they were produced about Jan. 17 2012.
And...Looking at the metadata on the "Faked" document It was "Scanned" Feb 13 2012, the day before they were "Leaked" to the press.
The only reason to "Scan" the document would be to hide the original Metadata.
If the "Faked" document wasn't produced prior to Feb 13 2012 then Dr. Gleick's statement that he received the “Faked” document first, prior to requesting the additional documents as he states doesn’t hold true.
Also, the time stamp on the "Faked" document places it as having been produced at UTC - 8:00 hrs Oakland Ca. timezone.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: Source of Heartland Institute document theft comes forew

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:44 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:Interestingly, Looking at the Metadata in the PDF docs mailed to Dr. Gleick, they were produced about Jan. 17 2012.
And...Looking at the metadata on the "Faked" document It was "Scanned" Feb 13 2012, the day before they were "Leaked" to the press.
The only reason to "Scan" the document would be to hide the original Metadata.
If the "Faked" document wasn't produced prior to Feb 13 2012 then Dr. Gleick's statement that he received the “Faked” document first, prior to requesting the additional documents as he states doesn’t hold true.
Also, the time stamp on the "Faked" document places it as having been produced at UTC - 8:00 hrs Oakland Ca. timezone.
However, the "faked" document isn't the interesting one. It is the documents which Heartland has acknowledged as real that demonstrate the organization is a fraud- not a "think tank" at all, but merely a lobbying organization for special interests. Everybody with any sense knew that already, of course, but now there's actual proof.

Regrettably, the sort of people who listen to Heartland and its ilk in the first place are willing to look beyond even the most obvious actual evidence- a characteristic such organizations depend upon for their existence. If more people were rational, their methods would be useless. This is an organization which claims second hand smoke is safe and manmade global warming doesn't exist- assertions that are wrong beyond all reasonable doubt. Yet fools listen...
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
BMAONE23
Commentator Model 1.23
Posts: 4076
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by BMAONE23 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:39 pm

It looks like Dr Gleick might be paying the price for his lapse in ethical conduct. Although there is nothing formal in the press as of now, that I am aware of, it would appear that Dr Gleick has been removed from the American Geophisical Union "Task Force on Scientific Ethics" Board of Directors.
This link leads to the GoogleCache webpage from 2-17 and clearly lists Dr Gleick as the "Chair" for the American Geophisical Union "Task Force on Scientific Efhics".
Todays Webpage for the AGU Task Force on Scientific Ethics lists no "Chair". Unfortunate for Dr Gleick, but glad to see that the "Task Force" is upholding their core values on their own boardmembers.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:45 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:Todays Webpage for the AGU Task Force on Scientific Ethics lists no "Chair". Unfortunate for Dr Gleick, but glad to see that the "Task Force" is upholding their core values on their own boardmembers.
It is rare when scientific organizations don't maintain high ethical standards. Indeed, that is one way we can distinguish genuine scientific professional organizations from the pretend sort like Heartland.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
geckzilla
Ocular Digitator
Posts: 9180
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:42 pm
Location: Modesto, CA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by geckzilla » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:53 pm

Why would one even be faked if the real ones are damaging? Is there any reasoning behind it at all?
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by Chris Peterson » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:57 pm

geckzilla wrote:Why would one even be faked if the real ones are damaging? Is there any reasoning behind it at all?
It's odd, isn't it? The faked one (if it is) contains nothing that isn't in the other documents except the one sentence about discouraging high school teachers from teaching science. Heartland has already produced curriculum like this, so the sentence isn't particularly damning. It's all the financial stuff that really brings the organization's motives to the foreground... and that material is all real.

If the one document was faked, I wonder who did it, and why.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
bystander
Apathetic Retiree
Posts: 21592
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by bystander » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:58 pm

Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

User avatar
Amir
Science Officer
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:47 pm
Location: Tehran, Iran
Contact:

Re: The perils of being a scientist

Post by Amir » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:38 am

The perils of being a scientist?! you might end up inspiring people in some ways you may not have intended!!
http://www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=999093
lol :D
Last edited by Amir on Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Amir H Taheri

Post Reply