APOD: The View from Everest (2011 Apr 17)

[yahchanan]

APOD asks: "What would it be like to stand atop the tallest mountain on Earth?"

Then it fails to answer the question! They wrongly assume Everest is the "tallest" mountain. It is not. The "tallest" mountain on Earth is Mauna Kea.

Then, one of the commentators said another mistake: "Mount Everest is as close to the stars as you can get without leaving the surface of our local planet."

That is also an error. The writer assumes Everest is the highest point on Earth. It is not. The closest point to the stars is Mt Chimborazo.

Mt Everest is merely the highest point above sea level.

[owlice]

The elevation of a geographic location is its height above a fixed reference point, most commonly a reference geoid, a mathematical model of the Earth's sea level as an equipotential gravitational surface (see Geodetic system, vertical datum). Elevation, or geometric height, is mainly used when referring to points on the Earth's surface, while altitude or geopotential height is used for points above the surface, such as an aircraft in flight or a spacecraft in orbit, and depth is used for points below the surface.

Less commonly, elevation is measured using the center of the Earth as the reference point. Due to equatorial bulge, there is debate as to which of the summits of Mt. Everest or Chimborazo is at the higher elevation, as the Chimborazo summit is further from the Earth's center while the Mt. Everest summit is higher above mean sea level.

We don't stand on the floor of the sea nor at the Earth's center. "Above sea level" is the usual measure.

[NoelC]

/(bb|[^b]{2})/

As long as we're doing so much nitpicking in this thread, shouldn't that be b+b? This has been bothering me for days. Okay, maybe "bothering" is a bit strong.

I should think bb is more likely to be interpreted as "b squared", not "2b".

In the C programming language, the concept could be expressed as a function:

Code: Select all

bool That(int Be)
{
   bool Answer;

    if ((Be + Be) || !(Be * 2))
        Answer = true;
    else
        Answer = false;

    return Answer;
}

And with all that it seems it could be just optimized out, as it should always return true - since the condition and its negation are expressed as a logical OR operation. I wondered if a modern compiler could figure it out, so I tried it with Microsoft Visual Studio 2010... Sure enough, it reduces to just two machine instructions:

Code: Select all

PUBLIC	?That@@YA_NH@Z					; That
; Function compile flags: /Ogtp
; File c:\temp\that.cpp
;	COMDAT ?That@@YA_NH@Z
_TEXT	SEGMENT
?That@@YA_NH@Z PROC					; That, COMDAT

; 931  :    bool Answer;
; 932  : 
; 933  :     if ((Be + Be) || !(Be * 2))
; 934  :         Answer = true;
; 935  :     else
; 936  :         Answer = false;
; 937  : 
; 938  :     return Answer;

	mov	al, 1

; 939  : }

	ret	0
?That@@YA_NH@Z ENDP					; That
_TEXT	ENDS

I don't know who this movie guy Al is, but he's definitely the one.

-Noel

[JohnD]

Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

[biddie67]

A question for Chris Peterson ~~ with reference to a comment you made back on page 1 of these comments:

..... Even on external oxygen, the pO2 of climbers on Everest is dangerously low. ....

Scuba divers have to concern themselves with oxygen toxicity at depth, do climbers on these high mountains also have to be concerned with how they are breathing oxygen or special air mixes at altitude?

[owlice]

Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

John, I don't think so! If there's an error in the APOD text, the APOD editors appreciate knowing about it. If you don't like the way something is phrased, I think that's okay to say, too. Some of the things you have said (or suggested) are wrong in this APOD just ... aren't. We've both learned stuff today we might not have otherwise learned, and had you not raised the points you did, my son and I wouldn't have had the conversation we had as I was taking him back to his college about the percentage of the population of Nepal which speaks that country's official language, about the percentage of people in the US who speak English, adopting a new language, etc. and so on!

[Chris Peterson]

Scuba divers have to concern themselves with oxygen toxicity at depth, do climbers on these high mountains also have to be concerned with how they are breathing oxygen or special air mixes at altitude?

In general, I believe there is no problem. As you gain altitude, atmospheric and alveolar pO2 drop, along with arterial oxygen saturation. Above about 30,000 feet (very close to the height of Everest) oxygen saturation falls even on pure oxygen. This is quite different from the situation experienced at high pressures by divers. Of course, climbers using oxygen generally don't use it continuously, but do so for longer periods as they get higher. I don't think any special mixtures are used, as in diving. Divers don't have the luxury of limiting their use of oxygen and relying at times on the oxygen in their environment- unless they have gills!

[neufer]

The View from Everest

[img3="Until 1852, Kangchenjunga (8,586m) was assumed to be the highest mountain in the world. Joe Brown and George Band made the first Kangchenjunga ascent on May 25, 1955. They followed Aleister Crowley's 1905 route on the Yalung Glacier to the southwest of the peak, and climbs the 3,000 m high Yalung Face. The "Great Shelf" is a large sloping plateau at 7,500 m, covered by a hanging glacier."]http://www.everestnews.com/everest2006/ ... 202008.jpg[/img3]

[b][color=#FF0000]100 km to the east past Makalu (8463m) is Kangchenjunga (8,586m)[/color][/b]

---

<<Kangchenjunga, in the Himalayan Range, is the third highest mountain in the world after Mount Everest and K2, with an elevation of 8,586 m (28,169 ft). Kangchenjunga means "The Five Treasures of Snows", as it contains five peaks, four of them over 8,450 m. The final word on the use of the name Kangchenjunga came from His Highness Sir Tashi Namgyal, the Maharaja of Sikkim, who stated that "although junga had no meaning in Tibetan, it really ought to have been Zod-nga (treasure, five) Kang-chen (snow, big) to convey the meaning correctly". Three of the five peaks (main, central, and south) are on the border of the Indian North Sikkim and Taplejung District of Nepal, while the other two are completely in Taplejung District. Nepal is home to the Kanchenjunga Conservation Area Project run by the World Wildlife Fund in cooperation with the Government of Nepal. The sanctuary is home to the red panda and other montane animals, birds and plants. Kangchenjunga was first climbed on May 25, 1955 by Joe Brown and George Band, who were part of a British expedition. The British expedition honoured the beliefs of the Sikkimese, who hold the summit sacred, by stopping a few feet short of the actual summit. Most successful summit parties since then have followed this tradition. Permission to climb the mountain from the Indian side is rare, but sometimes allowed. Because of its remote location in Nepal and difficult access from India, the Kangchenjunga region is not much explored by trekkers. It has, therefore, retained much of its pristine beauty. In Sikkim too, trekking into the Kangchenjunga region has just been permitted. The Goecha La trek is gaining popularity amongst tourists. It goes to the Goecha La Pass, located right in front of the huge southeast face of Kangchenjunga. Another trek to Green Lake Basin has recently been opened for trekking. This goes to the Northeast side of Kangchenjunga along the famous Zemu Glacier.>>

[owlice]

This has been bothering me for days.

My work here is done!

[neufer]

Statue of Brigitte Bardot in Buzios, Brazil

I should think bb is more likely to be interpreted as "b squared", not "2b".

BB: (s) Barbados - (i) Boys' Brigade
-----------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun

<<BB guns are a type of air gun designed to shoot projectiles named BBs after the birdshot pellet of approximately the same size. One of the most famous BB guns is the Red Ryder BB Gun by Daisy Outdoor Products, modeled after the western Winchester rifle. First introduced in 1938, the BB gun became an iconic American toy, and is still in production today. While it is often stated that the term "BB" originated from "ball bearing" this is not the case. The original BB guns used the BB-sized lead shot for shotguns, midway between B and BBB size. BB shot was nominally 0.180 inches, but tended to vary considerably in size due to the high allowable tolerances for shotgun shell use. Around 1900, Daisy, one of the earliest makers of BB guns, changed their BB gun bore diameter to .175 inches, and began to market precision-made lead shot specifically for their BB guns. Subsequently, the term "BB" became more generic, referring to round shot of various calibers and materials. It should also be noted that the ubiquitous usage of the term "ball bearing" for any steel ball is technically incorrect. A ball bearing is a mechanical bearing constructed with a multitude of bearing balls.>>
-----------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.B._King

<<B.B. King (born Riley B. King September 16, 1925) is an American blues guitarist and singer-songwriter acclaimed for his expressive singing and fluid, complex guitar playing. Initially he worked at the local R&B radio station WDIA as a singer and disc jockey, where he gained the nickname "Beale Street Blues Boy", later shortened to "B.B.">>
-----------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebe_Rebozo

<<Charles Gregory "Bebe" Rebozo (November 17, 1912 Tampa, Florida –May 8, 1998) was a Florida banker who became famous for being a friend and confidant of President Richard Nixon. The youngest child (hence, the nickname "Bebe" meaning "Baby" in Spanish) of Cuban immigrants to Tampa, Florida, Matias and Carmen, Rebozo owned several businesses in Florida, including a group of laundromats, before starting his own bank, the Key Biscayne Bank & Trust.>>
-----------------------------------------
A bed and breakfast (or B&B) is a small lodging establishment that offers overnight accommodation and breakfast.

[Warmonger]

How, exactly, is this an ASTRONOMY pic?!

The Earth is part of the Solar System, the Milky Way, the Local Group, the Virgo Supercluster, and the Universe.
Mount Everest is as close to the stars as you can get without leaving the surface of our local planet.

Then a picture of my face is an Astronomy Pic, because my Face is part of my Head which is part of my Body, which is ...blah blah blah ...is part of the Universe, too. It contains my eyes, which are the closest things I can get to a telescope without using a man-made tool.

C'mon. You all know this is not an astronomy pic. All Insulting-of-my-intelligence aside.

[owlice]

The APOD editors have always had a broad definition of the A in APOD. Views of, or from, our planet fit that definition, as this image clearly demonstrates.

[neufer]

Dost not see? A monstrous giant of infamous repute whom I intend to encounter. ~ Man of La Mancha

• <<for behold there, friend Sancho Panza, how there appears thirty or forty monstrous giants, with whom I mean to fight, and deprive them all of their lives, with whose spoils we will begin to be rich; for this is a good war, and a great service unto God, to take away so bad a seed from the face of the earth.’ ‘What giants?’ quoth Sancho Panza. ‘Those that thou seest there,’ quoth his lord, ‘with the long arms; and some there are of that race whose arms are almost two leagues long.’>>

Two leagues = 11.112 kilometers

Olympus Mons is a shield volcano, similar in morphology to the large volcanoes making up the Hawaiian Islands. The edifice stands nearly 22 km above the surrounding plains (a little over twice the height of Mauna Kea as measured from its base on the ocean floor).

[geckzilla]

The APOD editors have always had a broad definition of the A in APOD. Views of, or from, our planet fit that definition, as this image clearly demonstrates.

Actually, I am sure that it has been said in the past that they like to throw in a non-astronomy picture about once a month. I can't remember RJN ever trying to claim that these non-astronomy pictures have anything to do even tenuously with astronomy but that they have other meaningful content. One of the most obvious ones being the infamous happy people dancing APOD. Hmm, incidentally, that APOD had the discussion thread where RJN explained this.

Quoted for convenience from the above link, the answer to "APOD, Y U NO ASTRONOMY TODAY?" (I'd put a meme picture with this but the Y U NO meme generator is down right now)

I posted that video to APOD. About once a month or so, APOD posts an image that is not strictly related to the classical definition of astronomy or space science. Reasons for this are several, including broadening APOD's reader base. APODs like these, in my opinion, interest people in space, science, and astronomy who might not normally have or follow such interests. In my view, the web appears to stratify people by interests, and many times people in one interest group will not wander into other interest areas. Eclectic APODs like this are therefore an attempt to reach across disciplines.

Additionally, in my view, APOD is also about planet Earth, exploration, and making connections between science and things not classically related to science. In this case, this APOD focussed on humans specifically, who have never been highlighted on APOD before. This also gives APOD a "human" link usable inside of future APODs.

- RJN

[owlice]

As I said, a broad definition of the A in APOD.

[NoelC]

a broad definition of the A

BroadDefinitionOfTheLetterA.jpg (22.75 KiB) Viewed 2444 times

-Noel

[owlice]

And there it is!! Thanks, Noel!

[Warmonger]

OK, Thank you guys for answering my question in a way that managed NOT to insult my meager intelligence. I can now rest easy knowing that the APOD editors are NOT, in fact, completely loopy. After that FIRST response, I was becoming convinced that not only were the APOD editors loopy, but so were the readers.

[geckzilla]

Heh, well you do come across rather rudely, Warmonger. You're still giving us the rolling eyes. Perhaps you should have approached us without being so presumptuous.

[AstroVP]

Was that taken through a polarizer ? Or something else can explain the wavy pattern of the sky brightness (i.e. it alternates bright/dark/bright/dark horizontally) ?