APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Comments and questions about the APOD on the main view screen.
tanarg

Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by tanarg » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:04 am

R.W. Hoyer wrote:"... in the nearby Milky Way Galaxy" indeed. And how close to Earth would that galaxy be?
Yeah, what's with these sentences? "Visible in the background are a few water clouds a few kilometers away hovering over the nearby Earth. Visible well beyond that are thousands of individually discernible stars averaging a few hundred light years away in the nearby Milky Way Galaxy. Far in the distance lie billions of stars that are thousands of light years away and compose the faintly glowing arch that is the visible central band of the flat disk of our Milky Way."

I've only heard of one Milky Way, which is our galaxy and quite "nearby."

Now there's another Milky Way to be distinguished from "our" Milky Way? Are we not a galaxy?

What the devil is going on here?

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by JohnD » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:26 pm

georgeedwards wrote:I have read the response to my earlier questioning the veracity of this picture. The technical explanation about short time exposures may be plausible, but the detail in the hoodoos, especially the softly curving slopes on the right, look cut-out, as does the rest of the outlines. My own experience and photography of Bryce revealed highly textured and detailed irregularities on the edges of the rock forms, such smooth edges are inconsistent with naturally occurring erosion. Also the lighting of the forms looked airbrushed, not an overall capture of the irregularities of detail, the Bryce forms have many surface irregularities that cause differences in tone and small shadows, some are just barely visible in this photo, the real rocks are not that smooth or clean edged. If this is a real photograph, it is so poorly contrived by the "roving spotlight" as to look fake.
You are being most ungenerous, george.
First, here's a pic of Bryce Canyon, that is said to be a 30 sec exposure with a fixed camera. Nary a star trail there.
Second, Ben is lighting the hoodoos with a powerful torch, that he holds alongside the camera. As a result, there are no shadows, that would provide relief and contour to the rocks. If you are a photographer, think of how much better a flash pic is if the light is 'bounced' off nearby walls or ceilings, or if the flash is off-camera, than a flash-on-camera shot, for the same reason.

Ben,
Have you tried having a confederate hold the lamp, some distance from you, when you take pics like this?

John

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by owlice » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:48 pm

Here's a picture of shooting stars in Bryce: That is from this post.
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BPCooper

Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by BPCooper » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:11 pm

Well, I did have someone with me (in the above pic posing and doing the lighting such as to make the silhouette) but I pretty much did the lighting myself. For this particular setup it would not have been possible to get closer to these hoodos as the trail doesn't go closer to them, if that is what you are thinking. The lighting isn't even perfect, this the streaks of light from the beam. I had to redo some of them as I was panning the camera because of light streaks or missing lighting the bottom part.

It's really not a hard photo to take, in terms of one of the individual frames. Next time you are in dark skies, bring a light and try it. The harder part is panning and framing properly so you get the whole thing into a panorama later. It's easy to not go straight, or not go wide enough on the ends and then you are unable to produce a proper panorama.

Guest

Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by Guest » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:05 am

The rocks look so fake that even if this picture is real its not worth it

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by owlice » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:22 am

Yup, the rocks look fake, even though they aren't, but that's the way they appear:
Source for all three images: http://www.timhaufphotography.com/gallery/Utah.html

:: puts Bryce on her bucket list ::
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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by bystander » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:48 am

Anyone that's been to Bryce, yes, the rocks look fake up close, too.

An amazing area with Zion, Cedar Breaks, Bryce Canyon and a couple of state parks all real close together. And for a really amazing sight most people never see, the North Rim of the Grand Canyon is not too far south. A completely different viewpoint than the more popular South Rim. It used to be a beautiful place to camp.

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by owlice » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:51 am

:: sighs ::
A closed mouth gathers no foot.

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:59 am

bystander wrote:Anyone that's been to Bryce, yes, the rocks look fake up close, too.
They look particularly odd (a better word than "fake") when painted with a spotlight during a long exposure. It's the nature of the light source, close to the camera and casting shadows directly away. The result is very 2D looking rocks with harsh edges. We've seen the effect before on APODs made the same way, and you can duplicate it yourself with a camera and flashlight.

You either like the effect or you don't (and there's no rule that everybody has to like every APOD; wait... oh, 24 hours and you'll have another), but there's nothing fake about how it was produced.
Chris

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BPCooper

Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by BPCooper » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:13 am

Thank you for the comments, I much appreciate them. It is a surreal place. I tried some at the grand canyon, too, but my light was only enough to reach the trees. Also tried a shot with Yosemite Valley, but the milky way was already too high by the time it got dark at this time of year for that angle. I did, however, get a nice star trail shot in silhouette:

http://www.launchphotography.com/Yosemi ... trails.JPG

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by Ann » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:18 pm

owlice wrote:Yup, the rocks look fake, even though they aren't, but that's the way they appear:
Source for all three images: http://www.timhaufphotography.com/gallery/Utah.html

:: puts Bryce on her bucket list ::
Fantastic images.

Ann
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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by Ann » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:20 pm

tanarg wrote:
R.W. Hoyer wrote:"... in the nearby Milky Way Galaxy" indeed. And how close to Earth would that galaxy be?
Yeah, what's with these sentences? "Visible in the background are a few water clouds a few kilometers away hovering over the nearby Earth. Visible well beyond that are thousands of individually discernible stars averaging a few hundred light years away in the nearby Milky Way Galaxy. Far in the distance lie billions of stars that are thousands of light years away and compose the faintly glowing arch that is the visible central band of the flat disk of our Milky Way."

I've only heard of one Milky Way, which is our galaxy and quite "nearby."

Now there's another Milky Way to be distinguished from "our" Milky Way? Are we not a galaxy?

What the devil is going on here?
Tanarg, I'm not sure if you asked a question or not, or if you plan to return to this thread if you did, but the Milky Way is, confusingly enough, both our home galaxy in its entirety (which includes the nearby stars of it) and the bright band of stars that we can see in the sky, and that we also call the Milky Way.

I know. Confusing.

Ann
Last edited by Ann on Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Paunsaugunt Plateau

Post by neufer » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:16 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paunsaugunt_Plateau wrote: <<The Paunsaugunt Plateau (pronounced "PAWN-suh-gant") is dissected plateau, rising to an elevation of 2100 m-2800 m, in southwestern Utah in the United States. It is approximately 16 km wide, and extends southward from the Sevier Plateau approximately 40 km, terminating in the Pink Cliffs at the southern end. It is drained by the East Fork Sevier River which flows northward on the plateau, to the meet the main branch which flows in a valley along the western side of the plateau. The plateau is highly dissected along the eastern flank, which is drained by the Escalante River in the Colorado River watershed, and is protected as Bryce Canyon National Park. A section of the Great Basin Divide is along the plateau, and much of the plateau is part of Dixie National Forest. The plateau receives approximately 5 meters of snow per year and experiences approximately 200 days of freeze-and-thaw cycles. Utah's Highway 12, an All-American Road, climbs to the top of the Paunsaugunt Plateau.

Geologically the plateau was created approximately 10-20 million years ago by an uplift on the larger Colorado Plateau. The uplifting caused the formation of joints along the side of the plateau. Subsequent erosive forces, especially along the eastern side in Bryce Canyon National Park, have resulted in the creation of strange rock formations called hoodoos which are the hallmark of the park.>>
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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by JohnBragg » Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:17 am

I think this obviously-altered photo of Bryce Canyon does a disservice to the canyon, to the stars, and to the reputation of APOD as a provider of incredible astronmical Earth-image photography. I'm surprised you included this amateur effort among your otherwise "stellar" photographs!

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by owlice » Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:36 am

Wow. APOD has featured many images made by amateurs over the years.

I see no evidence of alteration in this photograph.
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BPCooper

Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by BPCooper » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:13 am

I'm sorry to see there are so many "experts" out there who don't know anything, but would know if they took their camera and flashlight and tried it themselves. I appreciate those that commented and for the compliments with them, thanks.

I would love to know what the same experts think of this photo...

http://www.launchphotography.com/Delta_ ... SP-23.html

It went viral last year and there are many-a-posts on places like Gizmodo saynig it is 100% obviously fake, computer altered, cgi and more. (It happens to be on film by the way). I shouldn't have to defend my photos. :-(

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:05 am

BPCooper wrote:I'm sorry to see there are so many "experts" out there who don't know anything, but would know if they took their camera and flashlight and tried it themselves.
Not to worry. Nobody that matters thinks the image was doctored.
Chris

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Re: APOD: The Milky Way Over Bryce Canyon (2010 Jul 27)

Post by Henning Makholm » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:53 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
BPCooper wrote:I'm sorry to see there are so many "experts" out there who don't know anything, but would know if they took their camera and flashlight and tried it themselves.
Not to worry. Nobody that matters thinks the image was doctored.
The doctoring theories would be more interesting if they could suggest a possible motivation for doctoring the image. I'm not too enamored of the light-paining effect (it produces strange-looking variations in light levels due to uneven moment of the light beam), but I cannot think of any reason why anyone would spend time faking it with editing software rather than just doing it the way the image description says.

"I think this looks bad, so somebody must deliberately have edited a good image to put in the bad" does not make much sense as a criticism.
Henning Makholm

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