Dark Flow

The cosmos at our fingertips.
harry
G'day G'day G'day G'day
Posts: 2881
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Dark Matter Thoughts

Post by harry » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:39 pm

G'day

Interesting reading
paper 2008
Scientists Detect Cosmic 'Dark Flow' Across Billions of Light Years
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/new ... _flow.html

updated paper 2010
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/new ... 0-023.html
According to Atrio-Barandela, who has focused on understanding the possible errors in the team's analysis, the new study provides much stronger evidence that the dark flow is real. For example, the brightest clusters at X-ray wavelengths hold the greatest amount of hot gas to distort CMB photons. "When processed, these same clusters also display the strongest KSZ signature -- unlikely if the dark flow were merely a statistical fluke," he said.
supported papers
> Download preprint of the 'dark flow' paper (results and implications)
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/pdf ... ct2008.pdf
> Download preprint of the 'dark flow' paper (technical details)
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/pdf ... npress.pdf

It is interesting that the formation of a dipole was found, indicating a possible origin from the centre of a cluster of galaxies.
Harry : Smile and live another day.

User avatar
alter-ego
Serendipitous Sleuthhound
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:51 am
Location: Redmond, WA

Re: Dark Flow

Post by alter-ego » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:31 am

It is interesting that the formation of a dipole was found, indicating a possible origin from the centre of a cluster of galaxies.
Hi harry,
I believe your statement is a bit misleading, and I apologize if I interpreted you wrong.
The dipole Kashlinsky et al wrote about was determined to be statistically significant only after analyzing WMAP data over an area that included a very large number of galaxy clusters also having X-ray emissions. The CMB photons are scattered by the hot gas in clusters. This SZ/KSZ effect (which is over my head) is the source of the CMB fluctuation from which Kashlinsky converted the dipole signal, micro kelvin, to bulk flow velocity, and the statistical significance was obtained by only having a large data set. Nowhere does Kashlinsky attribute the diplole to specific location of an "attractor" (if that's what you were implying). There are two important points worth mentioning: 1) Kashlinksy showed the bulk flow to be coherent, and have an extent of > 1Gly (as far as his X-ray data could go). 2) Although a vast bulk flow region was identified, the direction of the flow (toward or away from us) is not.

Below are two quotes from his cosmological implicatons paper (btw, Greek symbols did not work in the quote format, so I chopped out math regions that showed up as garbage):
Peculiar velocities of clusters of galaxies can be measured by studying the fluc-
tuations in the cosmic microwave background (CMB) generated by the scattering
of the microwave photons by the hot X-ray emitting gas inside clusters. While
for individual clusters such measurements result in large errors, a large statistical
sample of clusters allows one to study cumulative quantities dominated by the
overall bulk flow of the sample with the statistical errors integrating down. We
present results from such a measurement using the largest all-sky X-ray cluster
catalog combined to date and the 3-year WMAP CMB data. We find a strong and
coherent bulk flow on scales out to at least (greater than or equal) 300h-1Mpc, the limit of our catalog.
This flow is difficult to explain by gravitational evolution within the framework
of the concordance LambdaCDM model and may be indicative of the tilt exerted across
the entire current horizon by far-away pre-inflationary inhomogeneities..
Our findings imply that the Universe has a surprisingly coherent
bulk motion out to at least 300h-1Mpc and with a fairly high amplitude of (greater than or equal to)
600-1000 km/sec, necessary to produce the measured amplitude of the dipole signal of ~2-3 microK. Such
a motion is diffcult to account for by gravitational instability within the framework of the
standard concordance LambdaCDM cosmology but could be explained by the gravitational pull of
pre-inflationary remnants located well outside the present-day horizon.
FYI, the quantity "h" is a ratio between 0.5 and 0.75 (meant to quantify the uncertainty in Hubble constant)

Kashlinsky would not have made the last statement above if there was room to interpret the dipole data as a source for anything else but bulk flow.
A pessimist is nothing more than an experienced optimist

swainy

Re: Dark Flow

Post by swainy » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:24 pm

I just had an thought. I was watching Hawking's Universe. He stated: His idea, BB Theory Came from black holes. If there is a hole in space time, which is a black hole, then that's where matter comes from nothing in the BB Theory. You just reverse a black hole. So here's my thought. Has another Big Bang took place? And is the reason behind the Dark Flow? I'm going to take it further than that. Our Sun, can not super nova, twenty times our sun can super nova. There, is a limit, To what can and can not Happen. What if A Black Hole has a limit? We Know of an 18/20 Billion s/m b/h, But What if there is a limit to what a black hole becomes critically unstable. And another big bang happens? we would not see this, or its affects for billions of years. But at The End of a dark Flow, might be different.

TC

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: Dark Flow

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:40 pm

swainy wrote:I just had an thought. I was watching Hawking's Universe. He stated: His idea, BB Theory Came from black holes. If there is a hole in space time, which is a black hole, then that's where matter comes from nothing in the BB Theory.
Except, the BB theory does not have matter coming from nothing.

And FWIW, this idea of the Universe coming from a black hole, or being the interior of a black hole, doesn't really rise to the level of a scientific theory. At this point it is little more than idle philosophical speculation- and the fact that it is Hawking's speculation doesn't make it any more scientific or any more likely.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

swainy

Re: Dark Flow

Post by swainy » Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:30 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:Except, the BB theory does not have matter coming from nothing.
Here his words. Matter from nothing.

http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_hawkin ... verse.html

Chris, You Have No idea What your talking about.

And this is the last time you will here from me.

Bye

The Code.

User avatar
Chris Peterson
Abominable Snowman
Posts: 18594
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
Contact:

Re: Dark Flow

Post by Chris Peterson » Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:51 pm

swainy wrote:Here his words. Matter from nothing.
http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_hawkin ... verse.html
He doesn't say that. In the midst of a general discussion about modern cosmology, he suggests the Universe might create itself from nothing. However, he doesn't say it did, and the BB theory does not say that it did. Any discussion about the initial conditions of the Universe remains largely speculative.
Chris

*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com

User avatar
Ann
4725 Å
Posts: 13833
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Dark Flow

Post by Ann » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:43 am

This flow is difficult to explain by gravitational evolution within the framework
of the concordance LambdaCDM model and may be indicative of the tilt exerted across
the entire current horizon by far-away ]pre-inflationary inhomogeneities..
Interesting.

I have seen some speculation that the Dark Flow may be caused by factors existing in the "background universe" that gave rise to the Big Bang.

I apologize for my terminology, and I realize that it reflects my insufficient understanding of these things. I like the idea that our universe did not, in fact, arise out of nothing, but that there was something pre-existing that gave rise to it.

Anyway. I think I have heard some speculation that the Dark Flow may reflect factors that existed in that "pre-existing universe" or the "pre-existing something" that existed before the Big Bang. If anything at all existed before the Big Bang, of course. I realize that we can't know anything about what, if anything, existed before the Big Bang. Or at least we haven't figured out a way to deduce anything about what may have existed before the Big Bang.

Well, according to the above quote the Dark Flow may reflect not what existed before the Big Bang, but before inflation, which took place just instants after the Big Bang. That is interesting enough to me.

Ann
Color Commentator

swainy

Re: Dark Flow

Post by swainy » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:26 am

Ann wrote:Anyway. I think I have heard some speculation that the Dark Flow may reflect factors that existed in that "pre-existing universe" or the "pre-existing something" that existed before the Big Bang. If anything at all existed before the Big Bang, of course. I realize that we can't know anything about what, if anything, existed before the Big Bang. Or at least we haven't figured out a way to deduce anything about what may have existed before the Big Bang.
The Universe is infinite, There are an infinite number of next Big Bangs waiting to happen, in the form of 20 billion s/m/b/h's through out the universe. The Dark Flow is a curtain that points to the truth. Matter from Nothing is imposable. Matter just gets recycled. And Black Holes do Have a limit to when they explode.

I won't get fooled again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUbGLVvf ... re=related

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/05 ... et-so-big/

Will You?

makc
Commodore
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:25 pm

Re: Dark Flow

Post by makc » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:36 am

Wait, wait, wait, haven't you literally said:
swainy wrote:And this is the last time you will here from me.
Please keep your promise, don't make us to make you :)

User avatar
bystander
Apathetic Retiree
Posts: 21592
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:06 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Dark Flow

Post by bystander » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:26 pm

Blow for 'dark flow' in Planck's new view of the cosmos
New Scientist | Maggie McKee | 2013 Apr 03

A potential portal to other universes seems to have closed. The sharpest map yet made of light from the infant universe shows no evidence of "dark flow" – a stream of galaxy clusters rushing in the same direction that hinted at the existence of a multiverse.

That is the conclusion of 175 scientists working with data from the European Space Agency's Planck spacecraft. But champions of dark flow are not ready to give up yet, including one Planck scientist who says his team's analysis is flawed.

The first suggestion that the flow existed came in 2008, when a group led by Alexander Kashlinsky of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, scrutinised what was then the best map of the cosmic microwave background radiation, the big bang's afterglow. NASA's WMAP satellite measured the temperature of this ancient light, revealing fluctuations in the density of matter in the very early universe.

The light's wavelength can also change noticeably when photons are scattered off ionised gas moving through space, providing a way to probe the velocity of such gas. Kashlinsky's WMAP analysis found that hundreds of gas-rich galaxy clusters appeared to be streaming towards a region in the sky between the constellations Vela and Centaurus.

Tilted table

This flow suggested that the universe had somehow become lopsided, as if space-time itself was behaving like a tilted table and matter was sliding off, says Kashlinsky. That goes against the standard model of cosmology, which says that the universe is increasingly uniform on larger scales, making it unlikely that structures big enough to produce such a tilt would form. Some researchers suggested that, instead, other universes could be pulling on matter in ours, creating the flow. But other groups looking at WMAP data did not detect the controversial motion.

The latest search is based on a new, higher-resolution map of the cosmic microwave background from Planck. The Planck team says their multi-pronged analysis also found no evidence of galaxy clusters gushing along in a coherent stream.

"The Planck team's paper appears to rule out the claims of Kashlinsky and collaborators," says David Spergel of Princeton University, who was not involved in the work. If there is no dark flow, there is no need for exotic explanations for it, such as other universes, says Planck team member Elena Pierpaoli at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles. "You don't have to think of alternatives."

But it is too soon to rule out dark flow entirely, argues Fernando Atrio-Barandela at the University of Salamanca in Spain. A member of the Planck team, he withheld his name from his colleagues' paper because he says they overestimated the uncertainty in their measurements, making what might be a subtle signal of dark flow look like mere noise.

"One has to be very careful not to wash the baby out with the bathwater," agrees Kashlinsky. He and Atrio-Barandela are running their own analysis with the new Planck data and expect to have results in just a few months.

Planck intermediate results. XIII. Constraints on peculiar velocities - Planck Collaboration On the Statistical Significance of the Bulk Flow Measured by the PLANCK Satellite - F. Atrio-Barandela
http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30986
Know the quiet place within your heart and touch the rainbow of possibility; be
alive to the gentle breeze of communication, and please stop being such a jerk.
— Garrison Keillor

User avatar
THX1138
Emailed Bob; Got a new title!
Posts: 305
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:27 am
AKA: Wile-e-coyote super genius
Location: San Luis Obispo
Contact:

Re: Dark Flow

Post by THX1138 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:24 am

There are a good many who believe its another universe next to ours playing tug of war with ours then another good many whom believe its nothing of the sort. Then also still others that believe that there isn’t any dark flow at all and still more that offer up pros and cons for it for a whole host of other reasons, it seems. This is exactly why I love this website, no one seems to know who’s got it right at this point but eventually we’re all going to find out “ I hope “ I’m glad Bystander resurrected this thread because this dark flow “ if indeed it is real “ question seems to at least have the potential to answer a few questions as to the workings of this universe and better yet if that does happen as always when one answer is found it leads to a gang of new things to try to figure out. I hope that makes sense, it does to me and it is exactly why astronomy picture of the day is my site on this here earth

User avatar
rstevenson
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Posts: 2705
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

Re: Dark Flow

Post by rstevenson » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:41 pm

I think you missed the point THX1138. This latest report says quite clearly, "The sharpest map yet made of light from the infant universe shows no evidence of "dark flow" ...". [emphasis mine]

Rob

Post Reply