Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
topic split from http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 31&t=20251
I have read breaking news in cosmology for years, This is why i am so skeptic. Breaking news is tomorrow's old news.
You see News, that a proton is not as they say it is, And in the next breath expect me to believe the facts about a 12 billion light year quasar. Things change, to fast. And i think they always will.
tc
I have read breaking news in cosmology for years, This is why i am so skeptic. Breaking news is tomorrow's old news.
You see News, that a proton is not as they say it is, And in the next breath expect me to believe the facts about a 12 billion light year quasar. Things change, to fast. And i think they always will.
tc
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
Why does this disappoint you? Science is a process of learning. If nothing in our understanding of the universe changed, then that would mean we were learning nothing.swainy wrote:You see News, that a proton is not as they say it is, And in the next breath expect me to believe the facts about a 12 billion light year quasar.
As for the quasar announcement vs the proton announcement, you're conflating two different kinds of remarks. One says, "This is what we know so far..." and the other says, "Look what we've found. It's interesting and may change things...." There's no reason to feel betrayed or annoyed or confused by these statements appearing at about the same time. They're both legitimate statements to make. And they're both interesting, if for different reasons.
Rob
Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
rstevenson wrote:Why does this disappoint you? Science is a process of learning. If nothing in our understanding of the universe changed, then that would mean we were learning nothing.
As what i have seen, you are correct. We must say, we think we are learning. but maybe NOT!
tc
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
Well, that's kind of the definition of news, isn't it?swainy wrote:I have read breaking news in cosmology for years, This is why i am so skeptic. Breaking news is tomorrow's old news.
The proton story is about new science. It's odd, unexpected, and largely unverified. It may turn out to be important, or it may fall by the wayside as some sort of instrumental or analytical error. It's interesting, but skepticism is in order.You see News, that a proton is not as they say it is, And in the next breath expect me to believe the facts about a 12 billion light year quasar.
This story is very different. No new science, no new theory, nothing to stop being correct tomorrow. This is just an observation. It has a simple, widely accepted explanation based on solid theory that is very unlikely to change (or change significantly). It is pretty certain that the explanation for this image will be the same 1000 years from now.
Chris
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
Chris Peterson wrote:This story is very different. No new science, no new theory, nothing to stop being correct tomorrow. This is just an observation. It has a simple, widely accepted explanation based on solid theory that is very unlikely to change (or change significantly). It is pretty certain that the explanation for this image will be the same 1000 years from now.
Incorrect. in 20 years time, your story will be embarrassing. You Know I Know?
tc
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
We'll see. But I doubt it. General Relativity is here to stay. And the history of science teaches us that theories get better, closer to the truth, and last longer as time passes.swainy wrote:Incorrect. in 20 years time, your story will be embarrassing. You Know I Know?
The likelihood of a new theory explaining gravitational lensing appearing in 20 years is extremely small (as is the likelihood of such a theory ever appearing).
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
Chris: I have seen things, I can not explain. I am as rational as you. I see something I question it. But these things I have seen, I was not on my own, the folks I was with also saw these things I can not explain. I saw these things with my own eyes. And as I consider myself an amateur scientist I must try debunk these things I saw. But I can't. These things were right in front of me. Not 12 billion light years away. You tell me its Gravity lensing, When you have no understanding of Gravity. You must agree, to the fact there is a lot more to the universe than we can consider. We have no idea of the questions let alone the great possible answers.Chris Peterson wrote:We'll see. But I doubt it. General Relativity is here to stay. And the history of science teaches us that theories get better, closer to the truth, and last longer as time passes.swainy wrote:Incorrect. in 20 years time, your story will be embarrassing. You Know I Know?
The likelihood of a new theory explaining gravitational lensing appearing in 20 years is extremely small (as is the likelihood of such a theory ever appearing).
tc
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
I think I have quite a good understanding of gravity. The observation of gravitational lenses is one of the (many) things that support our theory of gravity.swainy wrote:You tell me its Gravity lensing, When you have no understanding of Gravity. You must agree, to the fact there is a lot more to the universe than we can consider. We have no idea of the questions let alone the great possible answers.
I don't think there is more to the Universe than we can consider. I think the Universe is a fairly simple thing, and that we are capable of understanding it at a deep level. In fact, I think we've made a lot of progress towards that understanding. The fact that we haven't figured out all of it, or that some very important pieces are still missing, doesn't mean we have reason to doubt the parts that we have figured out.
Chris
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Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
Question 1: Why has there been 28 billion dollars spent on the LHC?Chris Peterson wrote:I think I have quite a good understanding of gravity. The observation of gravitational lenses is one of the (many) things that support our theory of gravity.swainy wrote:You tell me its Gravity lensing, When you have no understanding of Gravity. You must agree, to the fact there is a lot more to the universe than we can consider. We have no idea of the questions let alone the great possible answers.
I don't think there is more to the Universe than we can consider. I think the Universe is a fairly simple thing, and that we are capable of understanding it at a deep level. In fact, I think we've made a lot of progress towards that understanding. The fact that we haven't figured out all of it, or that some very important pieces are still missing, doesn't mean we have reason to doubt the parts that we have figured out.
Question 2: What Created Mass?
Question 3: What is 95% of the universe made of?
Question 4: Does there need to be a Question 4 ?
tc
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Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
Because with higher energies, we can probe more elusive particles.swainy wrote:Question 1: Why has there been 28 billion dollars spent on the LHC?
The question is meaningless. Mass is simply a property of energy in certain forms.Question 2: What Created Mass?
Another meaningless question.Question 3: What is 95% of the universe made of?
I don't know, does there? The questions you are asking don't seem to be very well constructed. Proper scientific questions should have a form that is both answerable, and when answered increases knowledge.Question 4: Does there need to be a Question 4 ?
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
Incorrect: check this Out:Chris Peterson wrote:Because with higher energies, we can probe more elusive particles.swainy wrote:Question 1: Why has there been 28 billion dollars spent on the LHC?
The question is meaningless. Mass is simply a property of energy in certain forms.Question 2: What Created Mass?
Another meaningless question.Question 3: What is 95% of the universe made of?
I don't know, does there? The questions you are asking don't seem to be very well constructed. Proper scientific questions should have a form that is both answerable, and when answered increases knowledge.Question 4: Does there need to be a Question 4 ?
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/Kri ... rson.shtml
The answer you was looking for was, I have no Idea Mark
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
No, Mark, I'll stick by my answers. Not a single one of the questions you asked is answered in the reference you provided. In fact, none of the questions you asked are even addressed by the reference.swainy wrote:Incorrect: check this Out:
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/Kri ... rson.shtml
The answer you was looking for was, I have no Idea Mark
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Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
No need Chris,
Because you can,t answer them with any plausible reasoning.
JD I'd say.
tc
Because you can,t answer them with any plausible reasoning.
JD I'd say.
tc
Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
There you go Chris:
What Is The LHC Looking For?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/large- ... lider1.htm
tc
What Is The LHC Looking For?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/large- ... lider1.htm
tc
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Re: Caltech: Astronomers Discover an Unusual Cosmic Lens
Your point? There's nothing new there.swainy wrote:There you go Chris:
What Is The LHC Looking For?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/large- ... lider1.htm
Chris
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Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
Yeah, what is your point, and what does it have to do with quasars or gravitational lenses?
Here is something more on what they hope to find at the LHC.
Here is something more on what they hope to find at the LHC.
Re: Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
For me there is only one question -- why does anything exist?bystander wrote:Yeah, what is your point, and what does it have to do with quasars or gravitational lenses?
Here is something on what they hope to find at the LHC.
split to http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 58#p127658
Last edited by Beyond on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: split post
Reason: split post
To find the Truth, you must go Beyond.
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Re: Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
Which is a perfectly fine question, but it is mainly a question for philosophers, not scientists.beyond wrote:For me there is only one question -- why does anything exist?
The rest of your questions should really be on the original thread.
split to http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 59#p127659
Last edited by Chris Peterson on Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: split post
Reason: split post
Chris
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Re: Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
Using Gravitational Lensing to Measure Age and Size of Universe
http://www.universetoday.com/2010/03/02 ... -universe/
I don't dispute the above. But
http://www.universetoday.com/2010/03/02 ... -universe/
I don't dispute the above. But
The Universe is far from simple.Chris Peterson wrote:I don't think there is more to the Universe than we can consider. I think the Universe is a fairly simple thing, and that we are capable of understanding it at a deep level. In fact, I think we've made a lot of progress towards that understanding. The fact that we haven't figured out all of it, or that some very important pieces are still missing, doesn't mean we have reason to doubt the parts that we have figured out.
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Re: Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
Perhaps. But it seems to me that the more we learn, the simpler and more elegant our models become. Perhaps the Universe is very complex, but I think it is ultimately described by a simple set of theories, well within our understanding.swainy wrote:The Universe is far from simple.
The fact that we haven't yet learned these simple rules doesn't argue against the Universe being fundamentally simple. I believe a complex Universe would be one where it was almost impossible (or maybe completely impossible) to understand anything.
Chris
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Re: Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
That's good of you to say that Chris. The Universe is very complex, for most people. But we are ALL learning. And this will never change.Chris Peterson wrote:Perhaps the Universe is very complex, but I think it is ultimately described by a simple set of theories, well within our understanding.
tc
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Re: Mark Swain Ramblings: Unusual Cosmic Lens (split)
There is a big difference between "the Universe is complex" and "the Universe is complex for most people". General Relativity involves some very difficult mathematical manipulation, but most physicists would nevertheless consider GR to be a simple and elegant theory. Just because most people will never master tensor calculus does not mean that GR is fundamentally complex. The same can be said for other theories, as well.swainy wrote:The Universe is very complex, for most people. But we are ALL learning. And this will never change.
In fact, there is no aspect of cosmology or physics (that I understand) that I can't explain in non-quantitative terms to a non-scientist in a few minutes, or in a paragraph or two, that won't convey the fundamentals of that idea in a way they can readily understand. That is one of the things that makes me say the Universe really is simple.
Chris
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